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So I played against a tau player and he was telling me that if he hits a flyer with marker lights it raises BS for units firing at the flyer thus making units firing at the flyer can fire at higher BS and thus not have snap shots only. after playing with his this seemed extremely stupid as he was firing hammerheads at my heldrakes. I don't feel like this is how the rule actually works and I wanted some clarification.

sykl wrote:
So I played against a tau player and he was telling me that if he hits a flyer with marker lights it raises BS for units firing at the flyer thus making units firing at the flyer can fire at higher BS and thus not have snap shots only. after playing with his this seemed extremely stupid as he was firing hammerheads at my heldrakes. I don't feel like this is how the rule actually works and I wanted some clarification.

Markerlights can increase your BS on snap shots. Of course, they have to land first. There are only two Tau methods of markerlights than get hit flyers using skyfire. The rest that are not skyfire have to make 6s.

Tau codex pg 68 in the markerlight section states that markerlights may be used to icnrease BS on snap shots and overwatch.

As Ambient says, also remember the increase to BS only affects one unit per token (not the whole army).

that doesnt change an entire squad of path finders all launching marker lights, one out of 10 is bound to hit then everything gets to fire at flyers.

Honestly, it's not the best method of using non-skyfire markerlights. He really should have some kind of skyfire dedicated unit to deal with flyers.

But as Quanar says and that i forgot to add, markerlights remain until the end of the phase, or until they are used. So if i have 3 markerlights on target A. Unit B can spend a counter to increase unit B's BS by 1+. I now have 2 markerlights left, but only Unit B gets the BS+1 for that one round of shooting against target A. Unit C can spend two markerlights and remove target A's cover saves, but it only helps out Unit C. The effects last until the end of shooting.

And next time you'll know to roast the Pathfinders first!

 Quanar wrote:
And next time you'll know to roast the Pathfinders first!

Indeed, pathfinders are squishy with an armor save of 5+. Their markerlights are considered heavy as well, so if you can get them to move, they'll be firing markerlights on snap fire their next turn. Not the most stable markerlight platform, but there it is.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
There are only two Tau methods of markerlights than get hit flyers using skyfire.

More, actually.

Sky Ray
Remora
Sun Shark
Crisis suit with XV-84 upgrade and velocity tracker
Any markerlight unit claiming the mysterious objective that grants skyfire
Any markerlight unit benefiting from the warlord trait that grants skyfire
Tigershark AX-1-0
Manta (lol)

sykl wrote:
that doesnt change an entire squad of path finders all launching marker lights, one out of 10 is bound to hit then everything gets to fire at flyers.

That's not how markerlights work. A single unit may spend a counter to increase its BS by 1 for that attack, the counter doesn't remain on the target to be used by other units. So hitting once with a squad of pathfinders would make a single unit BS 2 against the flyer, which is hardly amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Their markerlights are considered heavy as well, so if you can get them to move, they'll be firing markerlights on snap fire their next turn.

Of course this doesn't really matter very much when you're shooting at flyers, since the pathfinders are limited to snap fire anyway.

 Peregrine wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:
There are only two Tau methods of markerlights than get hit flyers using skyfire.

More, actually.

Sky Ray
Remora
Sun Shark
Crisis suit with XV-84 upgrade and velocity tracker
Any markerlight unit claiming the mysterious objective that grants skyfire
Any markerlight unit benefiting from the warlord trait that grants skyfire
Tigershark AX-1-0
Manta (lol)

Of course this doesn't really matter very much when you're shooting at flyers, since the pathfinders are limited to snap fire anyway.
.

I forgot about forge world. And right, it won't matter anyway, but it's just extra information. ``\(°_o)/``

Keep in mind that if a suit has a markerlight he can still fire it after moving because all suits have the relentless special rule.

Actually no.

BS is a characteristic pg 2 BRB

So first you apply any multipliers. Then you apply any any additions or subtractions. Then you apply any set values.

Without skyfire models firing at zooming, or swooping flyers can only do so as snap shots.

Under snap shots it says all models making snap shots are BS 1. Which basically means this can never be improved by any means. Snap shots are always BS 1.

Firewarrior is BS 3. That's his characteristic. He uses a counter, and now he's BS 4 that an addition. He's making a snap shot so he counts as BS 1 that is a fixed value.

So no, marker lights cannot improve you BS to hit a flyer.

If the model has skyfire then yes it can use marker light tokens to improve it's BS. Otherwise no.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Actually no.

BS is a characteristic pg 2 BRB

So first you apply any multipliers. Then you apply any any additions or subtractions. Then you apply any set values.

Without skyfire models firing at zooming, or swooping flyers can only do so as snap shots.

Under snap shots it says all models making snap shots are BS 1. Which basically means this can never be improved by any means. Snap shots are always BS 1.

Firewarrior is BS 3. That's his characteristic. He uses a counter, and now he's BS 4 that an addition. He's making a snap shot so he counts as BS 1 that is a fixed value.

So no, marker lights cannot improve you BS to hit a flyer.

If the model has skyfire then yes it can use marker light tokens to improve it's BS. Otherwise no.

Please don't state absolutes unless you're familiar with all the rules involved. Marker lights have specific permission to raise the BS of a snapshot.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Actually no.

BS is a characteristic pg 2 BRB

So first you apply any multipliers. Then you apply any any additions or subtractions. Then you apply any set values.

Without skyfire models firing at zooming, or swooping flyers can only do so as snap shots.

Under snap shots it says all models making snap shots are BS 1. Which basically means this can never be improved by any means. Snap shots are always BS 1.

Firewarrior is BS 3. That's his characteristic. He uses a counter, and now he's BS 4 that an addition. He's making a snap shot so he counts as BS 1 that is a fixed value.

So no, marker lights cannot improve you BS to hit a flyer.

If the model has skyfire then yes it can use marker light tokens to improve it's BS. Otherwise no.

Pg 68 of the tau codex under the markerlight section, under pinpoint (BS increasing markerlight function) clearly states that you can increase the BS of snap shots and overwatch. Firing at flyers is considered snap shots in the BRB.

It doesn't take what your BS and then modify it after the shots. The process of deciding to shoot at the flyer at all makes it BS 1.

Well codex beats rulebook.

Which warlord trait grants the skyfire rule? I'm not familiar.

BTW OP - each markerlight only raises the base BS to 2 (hitting on 5s) so with Hammerheads against Heldrakes (who still get an invulnerable save) this is not a very reliable anti air method. He'd be better with:

Velocity tracking HBC riptide
Sky ray
HYMP broadside unit (or railgun version with velocity tracker)
Quad gun
Also - EWO (cheap upgrade) on the riptide or broadsides will limit you to vector strike before he shoots

As he can get much more out of the pathfinders if they are working for other units.

Wagguy80 wrote:Well codex beats rulebook.

That's not always actually the case, although it is in this circumstance, and certainly shouldn't be quoted as the absolute authority in a rules debate.

Kholzerino wrote:Which warlord trait grants the skyfire rule? I'm not familiar.

BTW OP - each markerlight only raises the base BS to 2 (hitting on 5s) so with Hammerheads against Heldrakes (who still get an invulnerable save) this is not a very reliable anti air method. He'd be better with:

Velocity tracking HBC riptide
Sky ray
HYMP broadside unit (or railgun version with velocity tracker)
Quad gun
Also - EWO (cheap upgrade) on the riptide or broadsides will limit you to vector strike before he shoots

As he can get much more out of the pathfinders if they are working for other units.

Each markerlight token used raises the BS by one, so if you get multiple markerlight hits, you could raise your BS against the flyer by more than one.

You need 6 pathfinders to count on one hit. More than that firing at one heldrake, plus a hammerhead, is great for the CSM army. They still don't statistically take down the Heldrake - but they are firing a lot of points at it.

Kholzerino wrote:
You need 6 pathfinders to count on one hit. More than that firing at one heldrake, plus a hammerhead, is great for the CSM army. They still don't statistically take down the Heldrake - but they are firing a lot of points at it.

Or one sky ray, since it has skyfire, can get 1 or two ML hits. Then the Pathfinder squad can use those hits to raise their BS, and get MORE ML hits.

If that is how you want to prioritize your ML usage, you can end up with a HH railgun firing at BS6 (or more), and ignoring cover (no jink).

Also, the Stealth Suit 'vre can take a ML and TL, and add a velocity tracker. Though it's a little silly and very situation based to find use for that.

Also keep in mind this fact:
Snap Shots is NOT set modifier, it is a special rule that informs us that the shot will always be treated as if it was Ballistic Skill 1. That is different then setting the Ballistics Skill to 1 for quite a few reasons, the strongest being that it supersedes any modifiers by having you completely ignore the models actual Ballistic Skill. This is why it is not possible to get around Snap Shots by using other Set Modifiers, applying said modifier after Snap Shot, because you do all the modifications then throw the result out the window thanks to the Snap Shots rule's "treat as Ballistics Skill 1."

JinxDragon wrote:
Also keep in mind this fact:
Snap Shots is NOT set modifier, it is a special rule that informs us that the shot will always be treated as if it was Ballistic Skill 1. That is different then setting the Ballistics Skill to 1 for quite a few reasons, the strongest being that it supersedes any modifiers by having you completely ignore the models actual Ballistic Skill. This is why it is not possible to get around Snap Shots by using other Set Modifiers, applying said modifier after Snap Shot, because you do all the modifications then throw the result out the window thanks to the Snap Shots rule's "treat as Ballistics Skill 1."

But the ML rule supersedes this, right?

rigeld2 wrote:Marker lights have specific permission to raise the BS of a snapshot.

Yes, as it has always been possible for Special Rules to modify other values generated by different Special Rules. After all, it does not matter why a value is being generated, all that matters if the Special Rule wanting to modify that value states it has permission to do so. In the case of marker-lights, it states that the Ballistic Skill of a Snap Shot is improved by each counter spent, so it has done everything required to inform us that it has permission to modify the counts as Ballistics Skill 1 of a Snap Shot. Therefore it modifications this value, instead of the base Characteristic, because it states outright that it does so.

maceria wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
You need 6 pathfinders to count on one hit. More than that firing at one heldrake, plus a hammerhead, is great for the CSM army. They still don't statistically take down the Heldrake - but they are firing a lot of points at it.

Or one sky ray, since it has skyfire, can get 1 or two ML hits. Then the Pathfinder squad can use those hits to raise their BS, and get MORE ML hits.

If that is how you want to prioritize your ML usage, you can end up with a HH railgun firing at BS6 (or more), and ignoring cover (no jink).

Also, the Stealth Suit 'vre can take a ML and TL, and add a velocity tracker. Though it's a little silly and very situation based to find use for that.

Again though, given that the skyray's markerlight is networked (and therefor it can benefit from it itself) I find it hard to understand why there are now THREE units spending their round shooting at this single Heldrake rather than the tau using any of its great anti-air (such as the aforementioned Skyray). Has the Skyray already spanked away it's full stock of seeker missiles? Aren't there any Oblits for the hammerhead to kill? What are the full set of hypothetical circumstances that have got us to this point?

I wasn't saying any of this is an economical use, just something that can happen. Perhaps hypothetical Tau just REALLY wanted to kill the Helldrake. Maybe it made a pass at his sister?

sykl wrote:
So I played against a tau player and he was telling me that if he hits a flyer with marker lights it raises BS for units firing at the flyer thus making units firing at the flyer can fire at higher BS and thus not have snap shots only. after playing with his this seemed extremely stupid as he was firing hammerheads at my heldrakes. I don't feel like this is how the rule actually works and I wanted some clarification.

If your friend played the entire game using 1 markerlight to increase the BS of all models in his army then he is doing it wrong.

1 Markerlight hit gets you ONE of the following:
1. +1 BS to ONE SINGLE unit FOR THAT PHASE ONLY.
2. The opportunity to fire a Seeker Missile.
TWO ML hits gets you
1. A SINGLE friendly unit gains the Ignores Cover special rule for that phase ONLY and against ONLY the unit hit with the Markerlight. After the phase the markerlight is used up and discarded.
2. +2 BS to a single unit against the unit that was hit with the ML for that phase only.
3. the ability to fire two seeker missiles.