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did a search and didnt see this talked about before, or i just missed it...

The Gun/Vehicle, Stalker with Storm Cannon Array has "Skyfire"

In the Rule book a model with skyfire and not interceptor must make snap shots when firing at non-flyers.

But the space marine Book (which trumps Rulesbook), says. Servo Tracking: The stalker may elect to fire in duel targets mode. If it does it fires at two separate targets, making its full shooting attacks. So heavy four shots at target A, and 4 shots at target B. "All shots fired using the servo tracking SPECIAL RULE are made at BS2"

So does this means when it fires at a ground target its still hitting on 5's? If the tank moves twelve inches, and fires in servo tracking mode, does it fire at BS 2 and still hit on 5's?

I know their is an FAQ that says you cannot modify a snap shot. But again this is a special rule written in the codex, much like the Tau special rule for marker lights.

Thanks.

Unless the Special Rule in question states it affects Snap Shots then it does not affect Snap Shots.

The reason behind this is fairly simple; it is the difference between 'count as' values and 'Set To' Values. Set To values modify a models existing characteristic, changing whatever the model would normally have by switching it to a set number at the end of the equation. Count As values simply have us disregard the result completely, instead resolving the rule using the number internal to the rule itself. This is very important as it would be too easy to over-come Snap Shot restriction if it was a Set Modifier, just by using a second Set Modifier applied afterwards, but as it is a count as value it doesn't matter what the final result of the modifications are.

Yeah it just says "ALL SHOTS fired using the servo tracking SPECIAL RULE are made at BS2"

"All Shots" are the key words to that special rule for the weapon, that initially lead to starting this topic. As snap shot does fit into the category or "All shots"

Is their an errata or FAQ that says anything about or along the lines of, " rule/special rule must directly say it can effect snap shot? "

Doh, you edited your post as i typed this, but i guess the question still stand. Reference?

Understandable, I often edit a post a few times before I am satisfied that I haven't butchered what I was trying to get across too badly... goddess, you think the fact it can take over an hour in pre-release editing would be enough but I still find spelling mistakes and grammar mistakes in old posts at the very least!

The only solid Rule as Written references I can give is the Frequently Asked Question that you already know of and to point out something within it. The Question used had two examples of Special Rules taken from Codex's and the answer was still No. If they intended for codex to over-write this Frequently Asked Question then this answer would of been a lot more complicated then a single word. Therefore the only answer we have is 'No, Codex related Special Rules can not modify Snap Shots' and any question about is this or that Special Rule will always come back to this Frequently Asked Question.

The only other way I could try and explain this would be to pull page 13 apart to try and show how it could come to the No answer provided in the Frequently Asked Question.

There is a misconception that Snap Shots are nothing more then a 'set modifier' for a normal shooting attack. However the Snap Shot section of page 13 highlights a few differences to a normal shooting attack, even using the words 'rather then shoot normally' when it begins to explain these differences. As these are highlighted differences to the normal method of resolving Shooting Attacks, more then just the 'counts as Ballistic Score 1' at the core of this thread, it could be put forth that the Snap Shot is a completely different type of Shooting Attack that follows a near identical but different enough sequence to be it's own entity. It would be a solid explanation as to why Special Rules which modify a normal shooting sequence are unable to modify Snap Shots, as they are not a normal shooting sequence.

Doubtful I am explaining this the best but the only conclusions I can come from the Frequently Asked Question are thus:
'Count as' modifiers are applied outside of the normal modifying sequence OR the Snap Shot sequence is not a normal shooting sequence OR both...
but as it has been more then a hour for sure, and this is still sitting here in editing, I am just going to post it anyway and try not to edit it in post too much.

Haha, perfectly understandable, i edit all the time myself lol. BTW your explanation makes perfect sense, the fact the FAQ came out afterwards is the big key.

However, i keep going back to the how the rule is written in the space marine codex. ...
Also, i dont have it front of me, but i believe that the FAQ about modifying snap shots makes reference to Telios giving his BS to a model, and uses the words "counts as". The Stalker Icarus does not use the words "count's as", it just declares it Ballistic skill being 2. Oddly and to make it more confusing, snap shots declares "snap shots fire at ballistic skill 1" .... what a mess.

I am with you about the rule just so you know, i do not think it should happen now that i re-look at it. But would like some solid arguments to stand on to back me up, if i see these things in a tourney or not.

Cheers.

I think your looking at it the wrong way.

the set modifier for your shot is set at 2, then snap shots comes into effect to turn the 2 into a 1

snap shots only comes into effect after you have checked to see if it will come into effect, meaning that regardless of what happens before if a snap shot is to come into effect it will override anything else.

Marker lights are the exception to the rule as they have within their rule specific permission to increase the BS of the unit that uses the token for snap shots.

Hmm, good points.

Declare you are firing your stalkers weapon using the Servo tracking special rule. Boom, all shots are made at BS 2, however the target is not a flyer therefore it is now a snap shot making it BS 1. Seems Solid enough.


So you agree with Jinx. The Servo tracking special rule does not come into play. Word for word it says "All shots are fired at BS2" ? (rules as written)

You don't think this has any relevance or similarity to the Tau special rule you referenced?

Markerlights (the Tau special rule) explicitly say they can raise the BS of a snapshot.

rigeld2 wrote:
Markerlights (the Tau special rule) explicitly say they can raise the BS of a snapshot.

I understand mate, and the storm cannon array says "All shots are fired at BS2" . "ALL" shots, as i said before snap shot does fall under the category of All shots, no?

There is nothing in the FAQ or errata that says modifying shots must say it can modify snap shots (IE marker lights). It just says snap shots of BS 1 can never be modified.

Both Tau and Space Marine book were written prior to the FAQ...

Very confusing.

Tsilber wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Markerlights (the Tau special rule) explicitly say they can raise the BS of a snapshot.

I understand mate, and the storm cannon array says "All shots are fired at BS2" . "ALL" shots, as i said before snap shot does fall under the category of All shots, no?

There is nothing in the FAQ or errata that says modifying shots must say it can modify snap shots (IE marker lights). It just says snap shots of BS 1 can never be modified.

Both Tau and Space Marine book were written prior to the FAQ...

Very confusing.

Does the Stormcannon rule call out snap shots explicitly?
No?

Then it's not comparable. It doesn't override.

Specific vs general. All shots are Bs2 but snap shots are always resolved at Bs1. That FAQ basically makes snap shots more specific than any other rule that doesn't specifically mention snap shots. Does the Array specifically call out snap shots or just all shots?

It says "All Shots are made at BS2"... it doesn't say "counts as BS 2", and it doesn't say snap shots specifically. But ALL shots...

So your argument is that snap shots, are not considered all shots? Is snap shot a "SHOT" , if not then what is it?

The argument that snap shots are not in the category of ALL shots, because it is not specifically mentioned is not a very good one.

Thats like saying Murder is Illegal in ALL States of the USA. But because it doesn't specifically mention Florida then murder is okay in Florida...

Cmon we can do better...

I guess im just 10th manning this argument at this point. I'll just clarify with a T.O. if it ever comes up. Again i would like to think it does not work, the Weapon firing at ground targets is making BS 1 shots and there have been some good arguments to support here. But the RULES As Written seems to contradict it.

A snap shot can't be modified.
The tau have an exception to this.
The Stalker doesn't.

Tsilber wrote:
But the RULES As Written seems to contradict it.

Except they don't.
Read the FAQ. Read other abilities.

Codex wins when there's a conflict. There's no conflict here - Snap Shots are more specific and therefore you're BS1.

I see and understand your point.

I read the FAQ mate.

Tau have an exception because their rule specifically says snap shots. Tau book does modify it by a number though depending on how many marker lights you use.

The Space marine Gun, simply says All Shots. I think its clear that snap shot is a kind of shot. But the disagreement is weather or not Snap shot falls into the catagory of "All shots".
I think it does...
And again the rule for the Array says ""All Shots are made at BS2"

Hence if the Argument that Tau can modify snap shots because their codex says they can, then this space Marine weapon should be able to do the same.

Both books are written prior to the FAQ, both books have specific rules that modify snap shots / All shots (which by definition includes back ward shots, snap shots, jello shots.. any "SHOT"

So i think the argument is weather Snap shots falls under the category of all shots.

However if the consensus Here is it does not work and the space marine book rule does not refer to snap shots, then who am i to argue.

Lets hope T.O.'s see it this way as well and its an avoided argument all together.

Tsilber wrote:
Hence if the Argument that Tau can modify snap shots because their codex says they can, then this space Marine weapon should be able to do the same.

Not at all. Markerlights specifically call out snap shots in addition to saying that BS is raised for everything.
All shots isn't specific.

So your argument is that snap shots, do not fall into the category of " all shots " ? If snap shot is not a shot, then what is it ?

I think at this point, we can agree to disagree, I appreciate your feedback and arguments on the matter. I wish it was more specific honestly, sadly it is not. However, I will use your arguments if it does come up in a tourney. Because 8 shots divided among 2 targets, at str 7, BS 2 (which you can cast prescience on), that can shoot at anything on the board is kinda scary for 75 points, not to mention ridiculous. At the same time a nice target for Puppet Master spell.

Cheers, and thanks again.

Tsilber wrote:
So your argument is that snap shots, do not fall into the category of " all shots " ? If snap shot is not a shot, then what is it ?

My argument is that, based on the FAQ, you must have an exception to Snap Shots be explicit. Relying on "all" is implicit.

The Space marine Gun, simply says All Shots. I think its clear that snap shot is a kind of shot. But the disagreement is weather or not Snap shot falls into the catagory of "All shots".

The SM codex says a space marine is Bs4, does that mean they snap shot at Bs4? You're essentially arguing that they do.

No one is saying snap shots are not covered in all shots. But snap shots say they can't be modified by anything. So you're all shots rule does not override the snap shot rule because it is more specific.

Take your murder example. Murder is illegal in all states. However in Florida law there is a law saying you can always murder some who has long hair. Hence I kill someone with long hair in Florida I'm OK. Get it? Now there is another law that says on Tuesdays you can't commit murder even of long haired people in Florida. Now I better hope I didn't kill that guy on a Tuesday.

Okay. And it is a Valid and good argument.

But my argument i guess is that snap shot is a kind of Shot. And the rules/special rules for Array says "all Shots" . I think ALL shots is pretty cut and dry.

I guess the disagreement then is, that in this particular case "All" is not specific enough. And to you is implicit, to me its categorizing / summing up any and all shots under its Ruling, including snap shots.

Snap shot is a shot, and therefore falls under the wording "All shots".

Am i being obtuse or do you see what im saying even if you do not disagree with it, lol ?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

The Space marine Gun, simply says All Shots. I think its clear that snap shot is a kind of shot. But the disagreement is weather or not Snap shot falls into the catagory of "All shots".

The SM codex says a space marine is Bs4, does that mean they snap shot at Bs4? You're essentially arguing that they do.

No one is saying snap shots are not covered in all shots. But snap shots say they can't be modified by anything. So you're all shots rule does not override the snap shot rule because it is more specific.

Take your murder example. Murder is illegal in all states. However in Florida law there is a law saying you can always murder some who has long hair. Hence I kill someone with long hair in Florida I'm OK. Get it? Now there is another law that says on Tuesdays you can't commit murder even of long haired people in Florida. Now I better hope I didn't kill that guy on a Tuesday.

Im not saying that at all, im not saying Snap shots from space marines are made at bs 4, not once did i say that. Im saying the rule for the stormcannon array says " All shots are made at BS2" Snap shot is considered a shot, and falls under the "All shots" ruling.

Lets pretend there are, snap shots, backwords shots, and mug shots in the game. The Tau rule would specifically only cover snap shots. While the Storm Cannon Array would cover all of these shots....

Btw, love your Florida murder reference.

You aren't following specific > general. Without you special rule specifically stating snap shots, it is by definition not specific.

I see, okay well Hurray it doesnt work then lol. Seems like i began arguing for a rule that i dont want to work...

So ill use these arguments if it ever comes up. General consensus is Space Marine Array still fires snap shots at bs 1, and im on board.

Im not saying that at all, im not saying Snap shots from space marines are made at bs 4, not once did i say that. Im saying the rule for the stormcannon array says " All shots are made at BS2" Snap shot is considered a shot, and falls under the "All shots" ruling.

Lets pretend there are, snap shots, backwords shots, and mug shots in the game. The Tau rule would specifically only cover snap shots. While the Storm Cannon Array would cover all of these shots....

No the Tau rule also covers all shots but has to specifically call out Snap Shots due to the snap shot rules. So whilst Snap Shots are certainly part of the set of all shots, the snap shots rules states that you can never adjust the bs of a snap shot. Which means no rule can over rule that unless it specifically calls out "yes even snap shots".

Right on, great points. Thanks.

The shots are made at BS2 and resolved at BS1.

 DJGietzen wrote:
The shots are made at BS2 and resolved at BS1.

While it is still BS 1 due to the FAQ; the wording on the Stalker is the same as Snap Shots; so you have 2 rules that tell you the exact same thing with different BS values.

I first read it as Firing at 2 ground targets increases your BS; but the FAQ lays down the law more clearly: without specific rule snap shots are always BS1.