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I have never liked the models for infinity or the looks of any of it. Its all completely bland to me. BUT THEN! I saw the box set for some trench infantry. Cygnar trenchers (no idea what that means...) but i quite like them. What does being a Cygnar mean and are all their units Steam Punk Trenchy looking? If so i might be interested. So whats the game like and whats the general gist of these forces and how do they play on the table top.

Cheers. bear in mind i know 0.2% about this game. Some guys play it at my club but i never even look twice at it. So please enlighten me.

Hi there, welcome to the Iron Kingdoms.
Infinity is a cool game with gorgeous models but I can see where you are coming from. Sometimes normal humans all in similarly styled armor can all blend together. I'm still tempted to buy a few infinity models just to paint. Warmachine offers quite a bit more visual diversity. In the same faction you'll see: snipers, WWI style Russian infantry, heavily armored knights with spears and shields, big ole' mortars, ninja girls, and giant steam-powered robots stomping around. That is without even accounting for mercenary options like a bagpipe bard or a unit of winter elves.

Cygnar is one of the factions in the game. Trenchers in particular are an expensive combined-arms unit with a support ability. They aren't very strong at anything but they can be a toolbox.

The game is typically played with 20-40 miniatures per side in a large game and scales down very well. You can play small games with five or less models per side. Players use their entire armies in turn in a typical you-go-I-go format. Unlike similar games, like warhammer, where full armies move and shoot in unison, you'll fully activate one unit a time in Warmachine. You'll also see many special abilities per unit and several ways to buff units. Nothing is vanilla in Warmachine.

The game does not roll a bucket of dice at any time. Instead, it works on a 2d6 system where probability is more predictable and dice manipulation abilities are common. You'll also find that comebacks and tempo shifts are very easy in this game. A clever trick and a blessing from lady luck can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Gun ranges are also much shorter than most games so that melee is a real threat and you very rarely get attacked before moving out of deployment.

I could go on about the unique and distinguishing features of the game but I think that is a good place to start.

 Dais wrote:
Hi there, welcome to the Iron Kingdoms.
Infinity is a cool game with gorgeous models but I can see where you are coming from. Sometimes normal humans all in similarly styled armor can all blend together. I'm still tempted to buy a few infinity models just to paint. Warmachine offers quite a bit more visual diversity. In the same faction you'll see: snipers, WWI style Russian infantry, heavily armored knights with spears and shields, big ole' mortars, ninja girls, and giant steam-powered robots stomping around. That is without even accounting for mercenary options like a bagpipe bard or a unit of winter elves.

Cygnar is one of the factions in the game. Trenchers in particular are an expensive combined-arms unit with a support ability. They aren't very strong at anything but they can be a toolbox.

The game is typically played with 20-40 miniatures per side in a large game and scales down very well. You can play small games with five or less models per side. Players use their entire armies in turn in a typical you-go-I-go format. Unlike similar games, like warhammer, where full armies move and shoot in unison, you'll fully activate one unit a time in Warmachine. You'll also see many special abilities per unit and several ways to buff units. Nothing is vanilla in Warmachine.

The game does not roll a bucket of dice at any time. Instead, it works on a 2d6 system where probability is more predictable and dice manipulation abilities are common. You'll also find that comebacks and tempo shifts are very easy in this game. A clever trick and a blessing from lady luck can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. Gun ranges are also much shorter than most games so that melee is a real threat and you very rarely get attacked before moving out of deployment.

I could go on about the unique and distinguishing features of the game but I think that is a good place to start.

Everything that Dias said.

Plus. This is truly a game of player skill. Any faction can win, and just about every unit can be used competitively. There are some that are easier to get into as a beginner and some that should be left alone till after you are good and entrenched in the system (see what I did there?). Cygnar, Khador, Skorne, are all IMHO good places to start but you really can't go wrong.

Best advice I can give you is two fold. First start with the battle box and work your way up. Second and the first helps with this..... Forget what you know about table top gaming that you may have learned playing GW games. The rules are as tight as I have ever seen. Words have meanings and are defined in the BRB. Errata's happen fast when they need to be updated. And my favorite. New models and rules don't invalidate older stuff. heck some of the new stuff makes the old stuff more powerful or offers new and better ways to play it.

As said above, Welcome to the Iron Kingdoms. Don't forget to collect your steam punk goggles and your faction affiliated warjack plushie.


The world of the Iron Kingdoms is very steam punky in style. Cygnar are one of the main Warmachine factions. The others being Cryx, Menoth and Khador (pronounced KAY-dor not CAR-dor).

Cygnar are more or less the good guys of Warmachine. They use a lot of lightning and they tend to have the best all round army.
Cryx are the evil faction. They tend to poison everything around them and they hit like a glass hammer.
Menoth are a religious faction who worship Menoth. They tend to have a synergistic style as most of their units are inferior to everyone elses. Oh, and they like to set things on fire a lot.
Khador are the 'enemy' to Cygnar. They are the Tzarist/Russian/Mongolian faction and like to freeze things. They have the heaviest and slowest 'jacks in the Iron Kingdoms, but whatever they hit will die.


The best place for Warmachine stuff is either their website or battlecollege. This will show you all the different units involved.

Oh, and it is a lot cheaper than GW because the battles are a lot smaller, plus the rule book is a third of the price (at least in jolly old Britannia.) and you don't need to buy any army books if you dont want to as all the models you buy come with a swanky little MtG style card with all their information on it.

welshhoppo wrote: your faction affiliated warjack plushie.

Where can I get this?

Swastakowey wrote: are all their units Steam Punk Trenchy looking?

Cygnar is more like medial knights with lighting, but there is a decent selection for that style.

 sing your life wrote:

welshhoppo wrote: your faction affiliated warjack plushie.

Where can I get this?

One Deathjack plushie, please!

 darefsky wrote:


Plus. This is truly a game of player skill. Any faction can win, and just about every unit can be used competitively. There are some that are easier to get into as a beginner and some that should be left alone till after you are good and entrenched in the system (see what I did there?). Cygnar, Khador, Skorne, are all IMHO good places to start but you really can't go wrong.

Best advice I can give you is two fold. First start with the battle box and work your way up. Second and the first helps with this..... Forget what you know about table top gaming that you may have learned playing GW games. The rules are as tight as I have ever seen. Words have meanings and are defined in the BRB. Errata's happen fast when they need to be updated. And my favorite. New models and rules don't invalidate older stuff. heck some of the new stuff makes the old stuff more powerful or offers new and better ways to play it.

Quoted for truth. If you ever played 40k as an all melee force against flyer-spam Necrons at the beggining of 6th edition or against Fantasty 7th edition Demons at all, you're probably used to some armies being down right better than others to the point that the weaker army has almost no chance in winning. However in Warmachine/Hordes a player recently won a major invitational tournament using a second tier caster and arguably one of the worst infantry units in the game. However he did so with a mixture of skill and knowledge of what his opponents would be playing.

------------------------------------------------------

Swastakowey wrote: are all their units Steam Punk Trenchy looking?

Most of Cygnar is less WW1 steam punk and more 16/17th century steam punk.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I have never liked the models for infinity or the looks of any of it. Its all completely bland to me. BUT THEN! I saw the box set for some trench infantry. Cygnar trenchers (no idea what that means...) but i quite like them. What does being a Cygnar mean and are all their units Steam Punk Trenchy looking? If so i might be interested. So whats the game like and whats the general gist of these forces and how do they play on the table top.

Cheers. bear in mind i know 0.2% about this game. Some guys play it at my club but i never even look twice at it. So please enlighten me.

Cygnar is one of the major powers in the Iron Kingdoms approximately equal in power to Khador. Highest tech for humans. Primarily worship the deity Morrow. Engaged in war with Khador after Khador invaded their ally and northern neighbor Lael. Engaged in a semi-cold war with Protectorate of Menoth as neither truly invades the other just clashes and skirmishes. Cygnar is the"good" faction, but not without severe faults. The new king (Leto) overthrew his corrupt brother (Vinter). Vinter is currently scheming to get back on the throne, going so far as to lead the Skorne in an invasion of Cygnar. Cygnar has treated trolls about as well as the USA treated Native Americans. They've oppressed Menoth worship to the point where they formed an exodus and a new nation (Protectorate of Menoth).

Their play style can vary a lot. They have a lot of shooting options but don't be fooled, you will have an extremely hard time winning with shooting alone. They have a lot of electricity themed options. They are generally regarded as having very powerful warcasters balanced out with expensive (points wise) options. Lots of access to mercenaries opens up your options greatly. They have two different trencher options, normal trenchers and commandos. Cygnar is steampunky but with a lot of B-Movie style electricity things going on. Generally, mercenaries are the most pure steampunk looking faction.

OK wow cheers guys. Now i play a few game systems (king of kings, flames of war, tried a few others and so on) I can adapt and learn very well. Despite being a casual gamer tactics are my thing But its hard for me to try non historic based games. Hence the convincing.

Now i would by the starter set but i try avoid those unless im trying to entice people to join my game system. Club doesnt start up for a good few weeks so i cant talk to the infinity players there.

So if i where to buy a small force of these guys what boxes would you recommend?

Trenchers are what made me get Cygnar too! (although I don't actually have any...) There is nothing wrong with the starting boxes for warmachine. Some are a bit better then others, but I still use the models I got in my Cygnar box pretty regularly.

If you really don't want the starter kit, I'd recommend the black 13th or a box of Arcane Tempest Gun Mages, a couple warcasters that strike your fancy (I would recommend one each of the Caines or Strykers), a heavy jack kit (the ironclad/defender/cyclone), and a light jack of some sort. I'm not sure which I would pick, maybe a lancer or a hunter. Depending on how much you're wanting to spend, I'd also get a box of melee infantry like the stormblades, or a mercenary unit if you don't mind going outside the faction.

Oh there are multiple starter sets? I see, maybe ill look into it.

Is the game based around power models or can i win with average joes so to speak?

You can win with everything. People often say that trenchers are rubbish, but someone on the PP forums (I think it is the user called bstryker from memory) had quite a bit of success at a tournament with them against more well regarded lists.

The game is based around combos kind of like MTG. So a unit may be very good or very bad depending on what else is in the list.

That said, there are some things that are generally considered good and others that are not. But your personal play style may mean this list varies.

Every faction has their own starter set called a Battle Box. Each comes with around 11 points of models. A Warcaster and 2-4 warjacks(or warlock and beasts if its a Hordes faction)

The boxes are legal to play right out of the box.

Then there are the 2 Player starter sets. One for Warmachine and one for Hordes. The Warmachine one has Menoth and Khador. the Hordes one has Legion and Circle. They're basically those faction's battle boxes plus a unit of heavy infantry.



The battle box for your faction plus one or two small purchases of choice will easily get you a 15 point list which is perfect for beginners.

The only book you will need to get is the main rule book(Prime or Primal for warmachine and hordes respectively) Faction books are completely optional as each model/unit comes with a card that has all its rules on it. these cards are used both as reference material and a place to mark damage the model has taken(if the model has multiple damage boxes)

Warmachine and Hordes are actually the same game. Only difference is how magic works but the 2 systems are 100% compatible.


Realize that this is a game with a steep learning curve. An unexperienced player with the best list in the world stands little chance against a good player with a bad list. And bad list vs good list is very relative.

This game is all about synergy and how your army works together. X may be awesome. Y may be awesome. But X+Y may be horrible.

There is almost no unit that is so horrible you would never consider using them ever. Some units are more useful than others, but nearly anything can shine in the right circumstance.

Is the game based around power models or can i win with average joes so to speak?

Both. It depends on the lists in question.

There are basically 4 types of models. Warcasters/Warlocks, Warjacks/Warbeasts, units, and solos. Then any of these could also potentially be Characters as well(Warlocks/Warcasters are all characters)

Some models will be unable to damage others potentially(particularly weak infantry and particularly durable jacks for example) or simply have such low odds they won't do enough before dying.

The game is a game of extremes. The balance of power on a turn can flip wildly. A player can be almost winning one turn and lose on the very next turn. The game allows for you to pull crazy shenanigans out of your arse, both by sheer cunning or by opponent error(and the game does not forgive errors)

Movement and placing of models is very key. Misplacing models by a mere millimeter has lost me games in the past.


Generally, the game is based around your Warcaster/Warlock and his/her battle group of Warjacks/warbeasts. And then whatever other units/models you bring along in support. Each Warcaster does different things so certain models work best with different Warcasters. Some support infantry real well, others only look after their jacks/beasts, and others do a little of both.

Since you are more of a historical gamer, maybe this description can help you better understand the setting.

Picture a fantasy world that has been allowed to progress in time up to the brink of the industrial revolution. You'll see dwarves, ogres, undead, elves, and goblins (no orcs strangely enough). The nations of the world are engaged in a brutal war spanning most of the continent and the setting takes on many characteristics of WWI with fantasy elements remaining relevant. It has an oddly-satisfying anachronistic tone.

Hmmmm, i see. Well i am convinced to give the game a try. If i dont enjoy it i shall buy the trenchers for the hell of it.

One more question someone mentioned earlier that games can be like 15 points. Does this mean that models are like .05 points etc?

Sometimes units can get so cheap that, yes, grunts can be the equivalent of .5 point each. Players can also take heavy warjacks that are 7-10 point walking tanks. or Light jacks that cost 3-6 points. You also need to take into account that leaders give you bonus points so most 15 point games allow for 20-21 points of models. A 15 point game has a model count usually 5-20 depending on if you take more jacks or more infantry.

 Swastakowey wrote:
One more question someone mentioned earlier that games can be like 15 points. Does this mean that models are like .05 points etc?

Yes, some models can be <1 point per, but you don't buy models that cheap on an individual basis. You'll buy a unit of them at one of two sizes -- like 10 models for 8 points, or 5 models for 5 points.

Units come in two sizes usually. Minimum and Maximum. Some units only have one size.

IIRC a unit of Mechanithralls are 3 points for a min and 5 points for a max unit. Min unit is 6 models, max is 10. So they're a half point each.

That's the bottom end of the cheapness scale.

On the top end you have something like Cavalry. Exemplar Vengers are 8/11 points for a min/max unit of 3/5 guys. So they're a little over 2 points each.


Light Jacks tend to be around 4-5 points each with a few being 3 and 6 points(or higher)

Heavies tend to be around 7-11 points depending on the faction. There are a few that are as low as 6 points.

Solos typically cost around 2 points each with some more powerful being 3-5 points. And a few cheap ones being as low as 1 point. One solo is 1/3 of a point and is bought in a group of 3(wracks)

Warbeasts in general are a little more expensive than their warjack counterparts. With lights rarely being less than 5 points each and heavies tending to be 9-12 points.


Warmachine does tend to have a problem in that some models are clearly over/undercosted for their power and abilities, and this is exaggerated because the point intervals are quite large. This doesn't tend to be a huge deal though because either you don't take that model or there's some combination that polishes the turd.

Some examples.

Reckoner Warjack. Its a lot of jack for its 8 point price tag, easily undercosted by a point because it basically has everything. Great speed(for menoth), Reach on a good pow melee weapon, an amazing gun with Assault and Flare, and it has permanent concealment from Ashen Veil. Hilarity ensues if you take a particular Menoth caster and run his Theme list which makes any Reckoners he takes a point cheaper.


Theme lists. Just to clarify a little.

Every Warcaster has a theme list(or sometimes a couple)

A Theme list is basically some optional "fluffy" rules you can use if you take a specific warcaster and models. The list's rules will limit you to a specific set of models and/or some things you must have in your list and in return you'll get some nice bonuses. Anything from a bonus on the roll to go first, cheaper models/units, to free upgrades or increased deployment zones. There are always 4 levels, or tiers, to a theme list. each tier is cumulative with the previous.

But you shouldn't worry about theme forces till you've gotten used to normal gameplay.

Theme forces don't require any special permission or anything to be used so you will run into them from time to time(some quite often)

Building your own list to start can be very fun and rewarding. Just a piece of advise, if you like trenchers you might like Caine for a warcaster. He's pretty much the king of ranged infantry buffing for Cygnar (so I've heard. i don't actually have much knowledge about the boys in blue). Plus he can always go all magic bullet food processor by himself if you want him to.

Here's his tactics article that might be a good read.
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/mkiiCaine

If you want to build lists before you buy look at battle college (link in Dias' sig) and use Forward Kommander. Between the two you should be able to triangulate a decent list.

http://www.forwardkommander.com/

Thanks for the links guys. Im sure im well on my way to making my first force.

And the PP forums have a lot of good info as well. Especially the Cygnar forum. The stickies are really helpful at the to and they have 1 or more articles for just about every unit, warcaster, etc.

The day to day blather can get old sometimes, but the stickies I find to be generally quite helpful.