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Simple realy I have a dark angel force and was wondering about fielding it as a space marine one, tactically what does one force have over the other?

Which is the better codex

This topic has been beaten to death, Dark Angels only really have Knights of The Bikes and Dakka Banner, CSM does everything better.

It depends entirely what you want to field as a force. In a general and generic sense, the space marine codex wins hands down - loads more options, more units, more versatility. In a specific sense there isn't really a winner. Like I said, it depends what you want to field?

I like infantry best I prefer tacticals over terminators and bikes but I still use them as support elements. Never really seen a.space marine codex how does it have more options then the dark angels? I get they have chapter Tactics but what else?

I really hope next edition the SM codex or another variant comes out before DA. They keep getting the SM beta treatment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They get grave guns, centurions, hunter stalker, better flyers, thunderfire cannons, bike command squads with storm shields, vanguard and sternguard vets etc. etc.

They also have better HQ's a better Drop Pod Alpha Strike IMO, and you cannot stress the importance of Chapter Tactics.

pepe5454 wrote:
I really hope next edition the SM codex or another variant comes out before DA. They keep getting the SM beta treatment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They get grave guns, centurions, hunter stalker, better flyers, thunderfire cannons, bike command squads with storm shields, vanguard and sternguard vets etc. etc.

Grav guns suck except on bikes and devs, Centurions either suck or are overcosted and short ranged, hunter/stalker sucks, flyers suck, storm shields on command bikers? fething lol. Vanguard and Sternguard aren't unique to C:SM.

So what we have are Stormtalons which suck and TFCs. One good unit. Boo fething hoo. You want flyers? Fire Raptor. I don't even know why you want grav guns or storm shield bikers when you have DW and RW. C:SM doesn't even have any other troop FOC swapping except for bikes. Even CSM has more troop options than C:SM.

What annoys me the most is when CSM and DA players start whining and crying about how C:SM is so much better. Because C:SM is the one winning tournaments right now and not Tau/Eldar/Daemons, right?

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

pepe5454 wrote:
I really hope next edition the SM codex or another variant comes out before DA. They keep getting the SM beta treatment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They get grave guns, centurions, hunter stalker, better flyers, thunderfire cannons, bike command squads with storm shields, vanguard and sternguard vets etc. etc.

Grav guns suck except on bikes and devs, Centurions either suck or are overcosted and short ranged, hunter/stalker sucks, flyers suck, storm shields on command bikers? fething lol. Vanguard and Sternguard aren't unique to C:SM.

So what we have are Stormtalons which suck and TFCs. One good unit. Boo fething hoo. You want flyers? Fire Raptor. I don't even know why you want grav guns or storm shield bikers when you have DW and RW. C:SM doesn't even have any other troop FOC swapping except for bikes. Even CSM has more troop options than C:SM.

What annoys me the most is when CSM and DA players start whining and crying about how C:SM is so much better. Because C:SM is the one winning tournaments right now and not Tau/Eldar/Daemons, right?

Not sure where that came from was it that I hoped that DA would not be used as a beta for space marines next time around? The rest he asked a question and I gave some answers. If you are talking about whining and crying that is all your post is as far as I can tell.

Grav cents are pretty boss if you drop them from a Stormraven.

pepe5454 wrote:
Not sure where that came from was it that I hoped that DA would not be used as a beta for space marines next time around? The rest he asked a question and I gave some answers. If you are talking about whining and crying that is all your post is as far as I can tell.

pepe5454 wrote:
They get grave guns, centurions, hunter stalker, better flyers, thunderfire cannons, bike command squads with storm shields, vanguard and sternguard vets etc. etc.

If you remove the odd RW and DW toys and the banners, what is left is a 5th Edition Marine Codex. And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

I don't have a problem with DA or CSM complaining because their book could be better. I have a problem when idiots constantly use C:SM as their whipping boy and scapegoat. I have an even bigger problem when people spout ignorant garbage and not only fail to own up to it, but decide to spout more filth in an attempt at redirection instead.

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:Grav guns suck except on bikes and devs, Centurions either suck or are overcosted and short ranged, hunter/stalker sucks, flyers suck, storm shields on command bikers? fething lol. Vanguard and Sternguard aren't unique to C:SM.

So what we have are Stormtalons which suck and TFCs. One good unit. Boo fething hoo. You want flyers? Fire Raptor. I don't even know why you want grav guns or storm shield bikers when you have DW and RW. C:SM doesn't even have any other troop FOC swapping except for bikes. Even CSM has more troop options than C:SM.

I'm confused, which part are you not doing? Sounds like you're whipping C:SM pretty good right here.

On topic: C:SM have cheaper bikers, access to grav weapons, generally better HQs, the Storm Talon, and Chapter Tactics. DA have Fearless everywhere, and Stubborn where they don't, infinitely sturdier Land Raiders, and more flexible troop options.

The part I'm not doing is bitching about my codex then pointing at some other codex saying why isn't mine as good as that one.

Which you are doing yet again, amusingly enough. It's like you CSM and DA players can't stop crying.

I'm not going to bother keeping the discussion civil if you guys insist on just being stupid.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
The part I'm not doing is bitching about my codex then pointing at some other codex saying why isn't mine as good as that one.

Which you are doing yet again, amusingly enough. It's like you CSM and DA players can't stop crying.

I'm not going to bother keeping the discussion civil if you guys insist on just being stupid.

Brother, the only insults in this thread are coming from you. Rest of the comments are outlining answers to the OP. As an aside - my post had no complaints in it, whatsoever. Inevitably, people will tend towards one codex or another with their own evaluations of power. Slamming them for those opinions is entirely unnecessary.

DA are total win! You have the dakka,dakka,dakka,dakka banner of wipe the Ork or Nid horde on the 1st turn. Every unit can have the USR kill chaos like a boss for next to nothing. My bad I forgot death wing, raven wing, greenwing & SuperRavenDeathWings of everything in the army counts as Troops.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
The part I'm not doing is bitching about my codex then pointing at some other codex saying why isn't mine as good as that one.

Which you are doing yet again, amusingly enough. It's like you CSM and DA players can't stop crying.

I'm not going to bother keeping the discussion civil if you guys insist on just being stupid.

I got to say your first post in here was pretty uncivil. I do gripe sometimes about DA but it's because they are one of my favorites and the gripe is more to do with how they are usually the first marine dex to be released followed by other marine dexes that up the power level (for marines). I do think this edition they are much better off than last edition with some nice options and fun lists. I do have issues sometimes and I think it's ok to even voice them from time to time. I'm not a DA player I am a DA, Ork, Chaos, Daemon, SoB, Guard, BA, CSM, Grey Knights, Tyranid player if one of those dexes has an issue I can use another doesn't mean I can't have or share an opinion on any of them. With that I will stop and reply to the OP and stop off topic remarks.

To the OP the ravenwing command squad and black Knights plasma guns are awsome throw in a librarian with PFG and don't forget the grenade launcher for rad grenades to lower toughness and get some ID going. If you are going for a bike list RW is pretty good but it can also be good with allied white scars. One thing you might consider if you have not painted anything yet is go for a succesor scheme that can be used as either regular marines or DA (just remember if you are doing allies maybe paint the bases a different color or something so people can tell whats what).

I think the marine dex does have better options, and a little more power. But I also think the DA dex can be far more superior as an all round force for one reason - Azreal. He IS over costed for his abilities. He can make a tactical squad pretty hard by granting them all an invulnerable, and you can pick his trait. All in all probably not wor 205 points. BUT, his golden ticket, something the marine dex simply can NOT do, he makes deathwing terminators, and ravenwing attack squadrons troop choices! That means that apart from your heavy support, your most elite elite and fast attack units EVERYTHING else is scoring. You could conceivably build a list with him, and just scoring units. What's your opponent going to target when everything can hold objectives?

I think that's dark angels strength over the marine dex. Of course, if you only want one or the other scoring, there is some pretty cool characters.

Oh and black knights. Those dudes are awesome. I'd take one of those over a white scar with a grav gun every day. But that's personal preference.

pepe5454 wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
The part I'm not doing is bitching about my codex then pointing at some other codex saying why isn't mine as good as that one.

Which you are doing yet again, amusingly enough. It's like you CSM and DA players can't stop crying.

I'm not going to bother keeping the discussion civil if you guys insist on just being stupid.

I got to say your first post in here was pretty uncivil. I do gripe sometimes about DA but it's because they are one of my favorites and the gripe is more to do with how they are usually the first marine dex to be released followed by other marine dexes that up the power level (for marines). I do think this edition they are much better off than last edition with some nice options and fun lists. I do have issues sometimes and I think it's ok to even voice them from time to time. I'm not a DA player I am a DA, Ork, Chaos, Daemon, SoB, Guard, BA, CSM, Grey Knights, Tyranid player if one of those dexes has an issue I can use another doesn't mean I can't have or share an opinion on any of them. With that I will stop and reply to the OP and stop off topic remarks.

To the OP the ravenwing command squad and black Knights plasma guns are awsome throw in a librarian with PFG and don't forget the grenade launcher for rad grenades to lower toughness and get some ID going. If you are going for a bike list RW is pretty good but it can also be good with allied white scars. One thing you might consider if you have not painted anything yet is go for a succesor scheme that can be used as either regular marines or DA (just remember if you are doing allies maybe paint the bases a different color or something so people can tell whats what).

my chapter is painted as successors mainly because I like my own characters rather than the codex ones. the primary reason I started this thread was because I wanted to know if buying C:SM was worth it as currently it costs a lot to buy one, (and I cant find a non invasive pdf download). im aware of what units are in each one but what I wanted to know was how they stack against one another.
eg
Terminators,
Deathwing costs more than regular yet gain fearless and split fire. advantage for shooty terminators but not really that useful on cc terminators and you still pay 4pts for it, although split fire can be used with a cyclone missile launcher allowing you to shoot armour and transports and still charge whomever you please. also the 4 pts include fearless and a nice buff against chaos.
so dark angels win in terminator department

Artilery
TFC beats the humble whirlwind, can cover a larger area with its 4 blast templates than the whirlwinds 1 large blast, and comes with a techmarine who can bolster defences and fix tanks. TFC is more expensive but I think it better in points efficiency.
win for space marines.

Artifacts
?

Special war gear
? I assumed it was the same but it has to be different as I don't see power field in space marine lists

Tacticals
?

this is useful, what tyberios is doing isn't

The special war gear or relics is indeed different and the PFG is a great piece of war gear the space marines do not get. Space marines get some things like a sword that gives +3 str and blind but can cause the owner to take a str4 ap 2 hit at the end of the turn they used it on a roll of a 1. They have some armor that is 2+ 6++ that grants relentless it also gives them the Ghazgul Thraka rule of one turn per game it becomes 2++. There is a storm shield that grants eternal warrior and adamantium will. A master crafted salvo gun, a chainsword that is +2 str and ap3 with rampage and strikedown. They also have a standard that grants fear and hatred as well as the usual standard stuff. So different stuff but nothing crazy.
Tacticals are pretty much the same but depending on the chapter you choose can get different stuff through chapter tactics. Some let your tacs reroll ones on to hit one lets you reroll misses once per game with tacs but if you take calgar you can do it twice.
Bikers is where they can get a ahead of DA if you are going for a bike army. DA pay for the homers on their bikes but if you are doing a pure bike army you have no need of them so white scars win out and then take RW command squad for the banner or command squad or black knights for plasma talons and the rad grenads which regular marines do not have access to. Hope some of that helps.

Edit: Not sure if I broke any forum rules posting that if I did pls have a mod take it down.

SM do almost everything DA can do but better, and cheaper. They also have more units, options and special characters.

DA have a few advantages: Prescience librarians, Black knights, PFG and dakka banner. - However, all of these except the dakka banner, can be obtained and used to full efficiency when taking DA as allies.

If you aren't building a list around around the dakka banner, or fluffy deathwing, then SM is the most competitive way to go.

Alot of people complain that deathwing knights can only guarantee 1 combat victory, but I often ask myself in 6th ed how to you get 1 unit in more than 1 combat in a single game.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

pepe5454 wrote:
I really hope next edition the SM codex or another variant comes out before DA. They keep getting the SM beta treatment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They get grave guns, centurions, hunter stalker, better flyers, thunderfire cannons, bike command squads with storm shields, vanguard and sternguard vets etc. etc.

Grav guns suck except on bikes and devs, Centurions either suck or are overcosted and short ranged, hunter/stalker sucks, flyers suck, storm shields on command bikers? fething lol. Vanguard and Sternguard aren't unique to C:SM.

So what we have are Stormtalons which suck and TFCs. One good unit. Boo fething hoo. You want flyers? Fire Raptor. I don't even know why you want grav guns or storm shield bikers when you have DW and RW. C:SM doesn't even have any other troop FOC swapping except for bikes. Even CSM has more troop options than C:SM.

What annoys me the most is when CSM and DA players start whining and crying about how C:SM is so much better. Because C:SM is the one winning tournaments right now and not Tau/Eldar/Daemons, right?

This is such an arrogant hand wave dismissal I cannot actually believe I read it. The C:SM flyers only suck in comparison to the Vendetta which now has a competitive life expectancy of about 2-3 months. The Talon provides precise anti infantry/anti light vehicle firepower for low cost and works exceedingly well in pairs or triplets. The Raven for 200 can get a TL AC, TL MM and two AP2 missiles which nerf the initiative of MC's you may face in CC. And carry infantry. It also kills reliably any vehicle.

Centurion Devs may have flaws but are almost guaranteed to annihilate their primary targets with little effort. You just parroted the uncoordinated and ignorant dismissal of critics.

Grav Gun Bikers are hilariously, stupidly better than RW Bikers, mostly with WS CT's. They can reliably kill Riptides with more firepower at greater range.

TFC's are a huge advantage. Just one can annihilate a GEQ blob in cover with ease or cause movement shenanigans.

AA tanks ain't great, but DA have NO reliable Codex born AA at ALL. They hve, to ally in something decent and this affects overall list strength.

You also completely forget Chapter Tactics which render almost everything in CA that was previously passable sub-optimal garbage, including the previously great RW bikers.

DA players have every right to be angry and annoyed. You don't.

Just because neither C:SM/DA is amazing at tournaments that doesn't mean they're both equally good. How you even came to such a fallacial conclusion bewilders me.

Exalted Mr omega!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exalted Mr omega!

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Just because neither C:SM/DA is amazing at tournaments that doesn't mean they're both equally good. How you even came to such a fallacial conclusion bewilders me.

Go ahead and point to where I ever said DA was better than C:SM anywhere in my posts. In fact, I could have sworn I actually admitted they are worse, and that I simply find it stupid to point at another non-top tier codex when filing complaints. So go ahead and point me to where I said that, while I count up all the times you throw around hypocritical statements like arrogance, handwaving, and parroting while you do the exact same gak.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Just because neither C:SM/DA is amazing at tournaments that doesn't mean they're both equally good. How you even came to such a fallacial conclusion bewilders me.

Go ahead and point to where I ever said DA was better than C:SM anywhere in my posts. In fact, I could have sworn I actually admitted they are worse, and that I simply find it stupid to point at another non-top tier codex when filing complaints. So go ahead and point me to where I said that, while I count up all the times you throw around hypocritical statements like arrogance, handwaving, and parroting while you do the exact same gak.

You made it seem as though CA and C:SM's balance is a non-issue, constantly referring to DA complainers as whiners. I never, at any point in that post, responded to a point made by you as though you were saying Dark Angels were a better Codex.

I guess that makes you a double-hypocrite?

Actually giving reasons for why those units didn't suck, even if within the constraints of time I only gave one point for those units further down the post, makes them far less of a handwave statement than your flat out declarations that X units sucks with no reasoning at all.

Fig 1:

hunter/stalker sucks, flyers suck, storm shields on command bikers? fething lol.

Fig 2:

So what we have are Stormtalons which suck and TFCs. One good unit. Boo fething hoo. You want flyers? Fire Raptor. I don't even know why you want grav guns or storm shield bikers when you have DW and RW

No reasoning at all.

What annoys me the most is when CSM and DA players start whining and crying about how C:SM is so much better. Because C:SM is the one winning tournaments right now and not Tau/Eldar/Daemons, right?

It is what is left to clearly be implied from this wonderfully insightful comment, that DA is as balanced as C:SM. You didn't leave room for by how much.

I mostly agree, but I don't think SM fliers are that great compared to Vendettas, helldrakes, or Necron air. But yes, C:SM is a big improvement over DA, but it still falls far short of the big boys.

Blackskull wrote:I like infantry best I prefer tacticals over terminators and bikes but I still use them as support elements. Never really seen a.space marine codex how does it have more options then the dark angels? I get they have chapter Tactics but what else?

pepe5454 wrote:I really hope next edition the SM codex or another variant comes out before DA. They keep getting the SM beta treatment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They get grave guns, centurions, hunter stalker, better flyers, thunderfire cannons, bike command squads with storm shields, vanguard and sternguard vets etc. etc.

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

pepe5454 wrote:
I really hope next edition the SM codex or another variant comes out before DA. They keep getting the SM beta treatment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They get grave guns, centurions, hunter stalker, better flyers, thunderfire cannons, bike command squads with storm shields, vanguard and sternguard vets etc. etc.

Grav guns suck except on bikes and devs, Centurions either suck or are overcosted and short ranged, hunter/stalker sucks, flyers suck, storm shields on command bikers? fething lol. Vanguard and Sternguard aren't unique to C:SM.

So what we have are Stormtalons which suck and TFCs. One good unit. Boo fething hoo. You want flyers? Fire Raptor. I don't even know why you want grav guns or storm shield bikers when you have DW and RW. C:SM doesn't even have any other troop FOC swapping except for bikes. Even CSM has more troop options than C:SM.

What annoys me the most is when CSM and DA players start whining and crying about how C:SM is so much better. Because C:SM is the one winning tournaments right now and not Tau/Eldar/Daemons, right?

Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:I don't have a problem with DA or CSM complaining because their book could be better. I have a problem when idiots constantly use C:SM as their whipping boy and scapegoat. I have an even bigger problem when people spout ignorant garbage and not only fail to own up to it, but decide to spout more filth in an attempt at redirection instead.

I know I said I would stop responding to off topic but it seems the thread has stayed off topic and I could not help myself. Maybe I am feeding a troll don't know but thought I would just show the OP asking a question about what other options C:SM have access to and my response (the appended part) then insults and attacks name calling for reasons I'm still unclear on. Almost like some how pointing out some things C:SM have access to that DA do not (which was the question) was an attack on you or C:SM.