Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was reading through my Chaos daemons codex and we saw something interesting. Kairos Fateweaver allows me to roll 1 dice peer player turn. We had it come up that it was bottom of turn 5 and I rolled a 6 for the game to continue. I was at that time winning and hadn't used my reroll yet so I choose to reroll that dice for a 2 which ended the game. My opponent says it wouldn't work, but we looked it up in the rule book and it says at the end of the game turn a player rolls a dice. We then diced off to see which player would have been allowed to roll the dice which I won so we considered it fair albeit cheese. Was I in the right on this one? Also would this work on turn 5+ night fight rolls since that rule does not state who rolls it?

Second question on the same line fateweaver does not have to be present for his warlord trait IE on the board, but doe he have to be on the board to use the staff reroll?

It allows you to re-roll. This must be one of your rolls (such as a to hit roll, or part of a leadership test). Imho, the roll to continue does not belong to a player and as such can not be re-rolled.

Player turns occur within a game turn. Rolling for whether there is another game turn is outside of that operation. This is the same as rolling to see who picks sides or rolling to see who goes first; or even rolling to see if you steal the initiative. Essentially they are mechanics that are outside of the game turn itself.

No, the reroll ability does not include any of those.

I must disagree with the above, though I doubt this was intended by Game Workshop.
If you pulled it on me I would always allow it as it is very Narrative for this character, pity he is priority one and I have Longstriker and anti-air monster-hunting commanders.

As to why, from Rule as Written, I would allow it:
The Veritable Game Length rule occurs at the End of Game Turn 5, giving it a clear point on the time line that is clearly not somehow outside of it. Therefore this is a matter of timing and one that falls under the same Frequently Asked Question explanation as the Answer detailing that the 'Beginning of Turn' and 'Start of Movement phase' are the same thing. Within a players turn there is only three phases: the good old movement - shooting - assault phases. Within a player turn there is only two sections, assuming two players, and that is player turn A and player turn B. Just like there is nothing detailing a 'beginning of a players turn phase' there is nothing detailing a 'between the two players' phase during the Game Turn. Therefore anything occurring at the end of the Assault Phase is occurring at the End of that Player Turn, and this would also be the End of the Game Turn if that is player two!

This would lead to problems with the people trying to deny you the ability to re-roll this die:
They must also deny you the ability to Re-Roll any Rolls involved in any 'end of the assault phase' abilities, which must also fall in this strange 'non-players turn' state that denying the Staff's 'During a players turn' wording.

Happy Jew,
The rule allows a player to choose a dice to Re-roll, there is nothing in the rule stating that it has to be a dice they 'possess,' unless I am missing a Rule or Frequently Asked Question that states you can only re-roll a dice you originally rolled?
Or some change to this meta-gaming staff?

Also, if there is something limiting a re-roll to a dice you rolled:
If he wins the roll off, what stops that from being his roll as it is his die and hand rolling it?

Jinx, so he allows a player to re-roll his opponents dice?

I also find it fair as you roll-off to see who rolls the end turn dice. If you get it, you get the reroll. If you don't, that's a bit of a waste of his ability...
So why not...
HIWPI. RaW is tricky, but JinxDragon nailed it.

You can't re reroll to see if the game ends.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
You can't re reroll to see if the game ends.

Citation?

KK, the rule says you can re-roll.

Let's say you shoot my warlord. I pass just enough saves to keep him alive (albeit with a single wound). Can you re-roll one of my saves in an attempt to get Slay the Warlord?

 Happyjew wrote:
KK, the rule says you can re-roll.

Let's say you shoot my warlord. I pass just enough saves to keep him alive (albeit with a single wound). Can you re-roll one of my saves in an attempt to get Slay the Warlord?

We'd need the quote of the actual rule.

Is it ANY dice rolls? or Dice Rolls in your Turn? Or just YOUR dice rolls?

"Allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice once per turn"

Page 42. Chaos Daemons.
The staff allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice once per turn – declare before you make the re-roll.

Page 122 Rulebook: Game Length.
At the end of game turn 5, one of the players must roll aD6.

My take on it is: the roll is part of turn 5 (or 6) -> yes you can re-roll it.

Edit: Ninja´d by CrownAxe

HappyJew,
Until I find something which states you are only allowed to Re-Roll die that you originally Rolled, I can not see any reason to deny it on those grounds.
I am still looking into Frequently Asked Questions and other things, it is slow as I am not feeling well so research is difficult right now, but if you find any please let me know.

 CrownAxe wrote:
"Allows you to re-roll a single D6 of your choice once per turn"

JinxDragon is right then, you can reroll anything within the turn. Including Objective Marker results, reserves, and many other things...

If you want to keep it until the end of Turn 5, you can, but risk making it completely pointless if you forget/same result on the dice.

Every argument I have seen against it has simply been:
You do not have permission to Re-Roll an opponents dice.

I have yet to see any page quoted to where this particular 'rule' can be found but that doesn't matter so much. This argument is based on the concept that only certain players can roll certain die if the sequence states whom rolls which die. The theory is; if you do not have permission to roll the original Roll then you can never Re-Roll that roll either because you still lack the permission to do so. It isn't a bad little theory, even if it doesn't have direct Rule support that I have seen, but it does have some flaws within it. A major flaw, for example, being the whole 'Specific Vs General' fundamental concept and the fact all rules explaining the processes for Movement, Shooting and Assault are such 'basic' rules that even the Rule Book states they will be constantly over-written by more advanced rules, such as those found in Codex's.

So that brings us the the core of the debate:
One side believes if a Special Rule granting the ability to choose a single die, without further restrictions in place, grants permission to re-Roll your opponents die.
One side believes if a Special Rule doesn't out-right state 'opponents die included,' then the ordinal player is the only one with permission to re-Roll that particular type of Roll.
Being as this is something we can not just quote page and paragraph for, it is likely to be unanswerable outside of 'How I would Play It.'

We could gather enough precedent cases to verify which one looks most correct. This will encounter a large problem however, as most Re-Roll abilities are very conditional. They name which type of Roll can be Re-Rolled and often are designed in such a way that only time they can be evoked is by the original Roller to start with. The lack of flexibility in other Re-Roll rules could make them invalid for precedent arguments, making it so the one or two cases we find could easily be argued as 'exceptions' to the normal. This would make it very difficult to find any argument that both sides will agree is 'correct,' and I already know I do not have the skill to be putting forth such arguments.

Oh why and why didn't they add limitations on which dice can be chosen?

How are you rerolling something you didn't roll?

Don't most rules that allow you to have the other player re-roll actually state that they have to re-roll? Why would it be phrased that way if you could just roll it yourself?

Nos,
I don't understand where people are going with the question of 'how do you re-roll if you didn't roll in the first place?' It is entirely possible for someone to re-do something another person originally did. All they would need to do is take over for that person, undo what that person had just done and then repeat the same actions which might then produce a different and more desired outcome. In this case is pick up a dice the other person rolled and roll it again, the dice would therefore be 'Re-Rolled' from all perspectives. As someone whom has to re-wash another person's dishes often, I know very well that you are not restricted to the original person having to carry out the same actions.

Bob Mariey,
Other rule are clearly better written in that they don't state any player at all, but make it part of the normal existing sequence. These rules simply state a unit 're-rolls their' or a model 're-rolls their' or a player 're-rolls their,' when they do mention a player. Had the Staff of Tomorrow used similar wording, stating that the player may chose to Re-Roll one of their die, we wouldn't have problem we have now. Unfortunately, the rule simply states they can choose a die and then re-roll it. Changing the wording to include 'their' would create the restrictions on which die the player can choose, a restriction I have only seen in relation to this rule with people wanting to create extra conditions then those existing in the Rule.

Still the act of comparing the different wording in these rules is something to consider for precedent, it could show this was an unintentional mistake thanks to poor editing.
After-all, it probably wasn't intentional to be able to pick up an opposing die and re-roll it.