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Just got into the game and have played several games learning the rules. I had a couple quick questions:

1. Where does cover get granted for an ARO against a model moving? If I go from cover A to cover B with open ground between, am I not gettin a cover bonus?

2. I'm pretty unclear on retreat and loss of leutinent. I understand Loss of leutinent by itself, but don't really get retreat by itself or what happens if both occur at once.

So if I lose 60% models, my guys all have impetious moves toward their deployment, that can be stopped by spending an order and my leutinent loses his special order. Next turn I spend another order per model and they are PERMANENTLY out of retreat?

Also, does going into retreat permanently make me not have a leutinent?

Thanks!

1. If ARO'ing model decides to shoot you at any point of your move where you don't have cover, you... don't have cover.
2. LoL and Retreat are two separate things.
- Retreat certainly does not cause LoL. You just lose your lt. special order.
- Next turn, model is in retreat again and you have to spend another order to regain control.
- if you're in retreat and LoL, you have an order pool of two (barring religious troops, IIRC; never really play them). Either use it to counter impetuous or elect a new Lt. Either way, you're fethed and unless you badly mauled the other guy too and were playing a scenario, just pack up and concede, really

http://infinitythegame.wikispot.org/Morale_and_Leadership

Thanks! I think what had me confused was that I thought I HAD to use those two orders to elect a new leutinent. That makes total sense now- my order pool is just reduced to two until I have a new one.

Yup. I've won at least one game I can remember by using those two orders to nab an objective rather than "losing" a turn to electing a new Lt.
Late in the game, that can really be a much better idea.

Not to mention in a full religious army, you can have more orders without a Lt than with one

(tho they would be mostly irregular orders)

...Which means the army with Lt. is still as well or even better off in about 99.999% of situations.
(Not to say it isn't a funny observation but this is NOT an idea you want to put into a new player's head )

Just about AROs - don't be surprised if it takes a few games to get used to the mechanics. The whole ARO and Face to Face system is complicated to learn, but flows well once you understand it.

If you are moving between two points of cover, the model reacting can choose any point of your movement to fire at you. So choosing a point where you get no cover is going to be the usual option.

It's also worth noting that both orders happen at the same time, and both are always played to their completion. So if you choose to move between two points of cover and also shoot, and your opponent reacts by shooting back, that point where they shoot you between cover turns into a Face to Face roll. If they win with their reaction and KO your model, he still completes his full move and stops Unconscious behind the cover he was moving to. Think of it as he got hit, fell over and slid the rest of the way while shooting and running.

It creates some really tense, cinematic moments (which GW could learn from - Forging a Narrative with strong rules works better than Forging a Narrative out of randomness). But the learning curve is definitely pretty high, but that's not unusual since the ARO and Face to Face mechanics are the primary mechanics that make the game work. They even encompass Close Combat with a few modifications.

That is the main reason I came to this game. It is so cinematic. I had my leutinent jump off a building in a last ditch effort to stop his guy, only to die on the fall. Pretty awesome haha.

I had one more question, which you kind of hit on already.

If the active player moves, then shoots, when does the ARO react? Say the ARO wants to dodge, but obviously they wouldn't declare that before any shots were declared. So would the ARO defer until the active player declares his second skill on the order to react?

 bdix wrote:
If the active player moves, then shoots, when does the ARO react? Say the ARO wants to dodge, but obviously they wouldn't declare that before any shots were declared. So would the ARO defer until the active player declares his second skill on the order to react?

Both short skills are declared at the same time. The active player declares he is going to move and shoot, or move twice, or any other combination of short skills, or single long skill. The reactive player declares his reaction to this. If the active player declares move+shoot, the reactive player decides then what his reaction will be, and if it is to shoot back, decides where he will shoot the active model during his movement.

Also remember if you declare a move+move, the active player is automatically Dodging if anyone decides to fire at him in reaction.

Thanks! That clears it up perfectly. Also, I didn't know about the dodge thing. That is pretty huge.

Actually, move-move means anyone shooting at him in ARO gets an unopposed roll against him (he's counting on range and/cover or vision mods to protect him).

You only get a dodge roll IF you move in ARO (because ANY move in ARO is a dodge) OR you declare a "dodge" in ACTIVE.

Aha, I always get move and dodge in ARO mixed up. Thanks for that chromedog.

So if the active player declares move and dodge, when does the ARO declare? It hardly makes sense for the active player to declare a dodge before the ARO is declared as a shot!

 Talamare wrote:
Not to mention in a full religious army, you can have more orders without a Lt than with one

(tho they would be mostly irregular orders)

I thought that loss of Lieutenant gave two orders, and then you spend those two that turn to elect a new Lieutenant? (This is not including Religious troops, which can also give their orders to elect a new lieutenant as well I believe).

 bdix wrote:
So if the active player declares move and dodge, when does the ARO declare? It hardly makes sense for the active player to declare a dodge before the ARO is declared as a shot!

You declare a dodge if you know you'll be going through an enemies LoF. Either declare a doge and move slower than rull run but faster than move and shoot, with the protection of a dodge roll, or run full pelt and hope they don't hit you.

 bdix wrote:
So if the active player declares move and dodge, when does the ARO declare? It hardly makes sense for the active player to declare a dodge before the ARO is declared as a shot!

An order of move+Dodge has an ARO declared during the move if and where the models gain LoF. Anywhere you see the model you may shoot it. If it crosses from cover to open ground then back to cover, you can declare your attack when he is in the open.

If his first skill is a short move skill "move", you declare "Attack:BS" (the actual action - the shorthand is "shoot") to the model anywhere along the model's movement where you have LoF, he can declare "dodge" as his second skill so that he gets a f2f roll against you - your BS (with modifiers) v his PH (no mods unless a motorcycle, TAG or REM). If his first skill usage was a short skill (like shoot) he CANNOT declare a dodge as well as Dodge and shoot are BOTH short skills and you cannot do TWO short skills in the same order (it's 1 short skill, 1 short movement skill, 1 short movement+short skill or 1 long skill per order).

So if you declare move-dodge you'll always be able to dodge if someone as LoF and an ARO on you?

 -Loki- wrote:
Both short skills are declared at the same time. The active player declares he is going to move and shoot, or move twice, or any other combination of short skills, or single long skill. The reactive player declares his reaction to this. If the active player declares move+shoot, the reactive player decides then what his reaction will be, and if it is to shoot back, decides where he will shoot the active model during his movement.

NO. This is NOT how skill declaration happens.

I'm a bit surprised nobody else has picked up on this.

The active model declares their first short skill (almost always a move) or a long skill.
Any enemy models with Line of Fire or within the 8" Zone of Control must declare their AROs now or not react at all.
The active model declares their second short skill if there is one.
Any new enemy models with LoF or in ZoC declare their AROs.

Roll the dice and resolve the declared skills.

It's possible that you're getting confused with Coordinated Orders where the models have to declare their whole Order at once.

 Alpharius wrote:
So if you declare move-dodge you'll always be able to dodge if someone as LoF and an ARO on you?

You'll get a roll (if you are able to). You may not get the dodge off, though.
(although when a REM manages to get off a critical dodge against a glue-gun, you generally have to laugh (they have a Ph of 8, mostly. So they dodge on 2's)

 IJW wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Both short skills are declared at the same time. The active player declares he is going to move and shoot, or move twice, or any other combination of short skills, or single long skill. The reactive player declares his reaction to this. If the active player declares move+shoot, the reactive player decides then what his reaction will be, and if it is to shoot back, decides where he will shoot the active model during his movement.

NO. This is NOT how skill declaration happens.

I'm a bit surprised nobody else has picked up on this.

The active model declares their first short skill (almost always a move) or a long skill.
Any enemy models with Line of Fire or within the 8" Zone of Control must declare their AROs now or not react at all.
The active model declares their second short skill if there is one.
Any new enemy models with LoF or in ZoC declare their AROs.

Roll the dice and resolve the declared skills.

It's possible that you're getting confused with Coordinated Orders where the models have to declare their whole Order at once.

Wow. Looks like my whole group has been playing it wrong. I'll have to get us doing it properly.

So it creates a situation where an ARO is potentially a dodge in response to a move-move? Does the ARO still perform a dodge and take his half movement, even though there is nothing to dodge? Thanks again, this is the most helpful forum section I've been to!

 bdix wrote:
So it creates a situation where an ARO is potentially a dodge in response to a move-move? Does the ARO still perform a dodge and take his half movement, even though there is nothing to dodge?

Yep, your guy basically sees someone coming, wants nothing to do with it, and dodges out of the way. He still has to pass the PH roll to move, but it will be unopposed.

Nice. I'd like to imagine it as an anti-climactic barrel roll from nothing.

I will admit it - I'm confused on this one.

A figure dodging in ARO can move half of its first MOV value, or make any other Short Movement Skill that does not require a roll.

A contrario, and by omission from:

Dodge is a Short Skill that allows a PH Face to Face Roll to be made against BS, CC, PH or Forward Observer Skills to avoid an enemy attack in LoF. A Dodging figure can spend the rest of his Order to carry out or finish his Movement.

A dodge in the active turn does not let you make that half move.

 IJW wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Both short skills are declared at the same time. The active player declares he is going to move and shoot, or move twice, or any other combination of short skills, or single long skill. The reactive player declares his reaction to this. If the active player declares move+shoot, the reactive player decides then what his reaction will be, and if it is to shoot back, decides where he will shoot the active model during his movement.

NO. This is NOT how skill declaration happens.

I'm a bit surprised nobody else has picked up on this.

Listen to IJW, serious pro here. Massively respected member on the official forums

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Not to mention in a full religious army, you can have more orders without a Lt than with one

(tho they would be mostly irregular orders)

I thought that loss of Lieutenant gave two orders, and then you spend those two that turn to elect a new Lieutenant? (This is not including Religious troops, which can also give their orders to elect a new lieutenant as well I believe).

LOL gives you 2 orders that can be spent however you want.
Religious Troops keep their orders while in a LOL
If your entire army is Religious then you will have an order for each soldier +2
While the normal situation is order for each soldier +1 (LT order)

The downside is that each Religious unit will only be able to spend their order on themselves, which basically means your entire army has turned irregular with 2 regular orders (which is pretty difficult to play with, but not impossible, and even more difficult to use it as an advantage over the normal regular order system)

Yeah, active Dodge and reactive Dodge is always a tricky one for new players.

The important bit to remember is that Dodge isn't actually a move skill, it's just that a successful Dodge in reaction is what lets you do an ARO move in the first place.

IJW - any chance you could write up an example of all that?

I know I'd appreciate it...

Dodging or order/ARO declaration?

Both, please!