Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It has come up to me this situation, can a model with Mark of the Wulfen use a Meltabomb?

I would say the answer is no but there are are some people saying it's legit.

Could you guys shed some light onto this?

Thanks in advance.

 GreatAtuin wrote:
It has come up to me this situation, can a model with Mark of the Wulfen use a Meltabomb?

I would say the answer is no but there are are some people saying it's legit.

Could you guys shed some light onto this?

Thanks in advance.

Yes he can use a meltabomb, why would you think he couldn't?

page 62 C:SW tells us that a model with the mark replaces his usual attacks with...

The grenade rules let you use a grenade (Where applicable) instead of the models normal (usual) attacks.

^this

Thanks!!!

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes he can use a meltabomb, why would you think he couldn't?

Because the effects of the Mark of the Wulfen are neither optional nor compatible with weapons or wargear.

 DeathReaper wrote:
page 62 C:SW tells us that a model with the mark replaces his usual attacks with...

The grenade rules let you use a grenade (Where applicable) instead of the models normal (usual) attacks.

I found this argument strangely self-defeating - on what grounds were you even trying to argue that he could replace his usual attacks twice? But that's kind of besides the point since none of it is true. You butchered the C:SW quote, which is more properly that he replaces his Attacks characteristic, gains rending, and cannot use any wargear, including weapons, and the meltabomb is just a melee weapon that limits you to one attack. "Replacing usual attacks" isn't something either one does, unless speaking strictly colloquially. If he could use a meltabomb, he would get a single attack, as that overrides his Attacks characteristic no matter what it is, but he cannot use a meltabomb because the Mark of the Wulfen prevents you from using melee weapons outright.

Pyrian wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes he can use a meltabomb, why would you think he couldn't?

Because the effects of the Mark of the Wulfen are neither optional nor compatible with weapons or wargear.

 DeathReaper wrote:
page 62 C:SW tells us that a model with the mark replaces his usual attacks with...

The grenade rules let you use a grenade (Where applicable) instead of the models normal (usual) attacks.

I found this argument strangely self-defeating - on what grounds were you even trying to argue that he could replace his usual attacks twice? But that's kind of besides the point since none of it is true. You butchered the C:SW quote, which is more properly that he replaces his Attacks characteristic, gains rending, and cannot use any wargear, including weapons, and the meltabomb is just a melee weapon that limits you to one attack. "Replacing usual attacks" isn't something either one does, unless speaking strictly colloquially. If he could use a meltabomb, he would get a single attack, as that overrides his Attacks characteristic no matter what it is, but he cannot use a meltabomb because the Mark of the Wulfen prevents you from using melee weapons outright.

That was exactly my reasoning for not using them.

Pyrian is correct in that there is a restriction and no permission to overcome that restriction.

Doesn't the mark say it replaces the attack characteristic? Where as the Bomb replaces attacks all together.

Irrelevant - the Mark says you can't use weapons. The meltabomb is a weapon. You can't use it.

rigeld2 wrote:
Irrelevant - the Mark says you can't use weapons. The meltabomb is a weapon. You can't use it.

That is not what mark of the Wulfen says...

"A model bearing the Mark of the Wulfen has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore he replaces his usual Attacks characteristic with [Deleted], rolled immediately prior to when the model makes his attacks. These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and are hence not affected by wargear, additional hand weapons and so on..." (P62 C:SW) Irrelevant part omitted, Emphasis mine).

It says these attacks are not affected by wargear, it does not say that you can not use Grenades...

The model may sill use a meltabomb in place of his usual attacks.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Pyrian is correct in that there is a restriction and no permission to overcome that restriction.

No there is not a restriction, if you think there is, Citation needed because I an not seeing it on Page 62 of the SW codex.

Pyrian wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Yes he can use a meltabomb, why would you think he couldn't?

Because the effects of the Mark of the Wulfen are neither optional nor compatible with weapons or wargear.

sort of, see above.

Pyrian wrote:
but he cannot use a meltabomb because the Mark of the Wulfen prevents you from using melee weapons outright.

The attacks are replaced with x. There is no longer any normal attacks to replace with a melta bomb.
Unless you can show that "replaced with x" is normal attacks then you have no permission to use the meltabomb.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Irrelevant - the Mark says you can't use weapons. The meltabomb is a weapon. You can't use it.

That is not what mark of the Wulfen says...

"A model bearing the Mark of the Wulfen has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore he replaces his usual Attacks characteristic with [Deleted], rolled immediately prior to when the model makes his attacks. These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and are hence not affected by wargear, additional hand weapons and so on..." (P62 C:SW) Irrelevant part omitted, Emphasis mine).

It says these attacks are not affected by wargear, it does not say that you can not use Grenades...

Are Grenades wargear?
Would using a grenade affect your Attacks?

If the answer is yes to both of those questions (and it is) you cannot use them.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The attacks are replaced with x. There is no longer any normal attacks to replace with a melta bomb.
Unless you can show that "replaced with x" is normal attacks then you have no permission to use the meltabomb.

He replaces his usual attacks characteristic (Usually 1 or 2) with (X).

X is now his attacks characteristic which can be replaced with a meltabomb attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Irrelevant - the Mark says you can't use weapons. The meltabomb is a weapon. You can't use it.

That is not what mark of the Wulfen says...

"A model bearing the Mark of the Wulfen has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore he replaces his usual Attacks characteristic with [Deleted], rolled immediately prior to when the model makes his attacks. These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and are hence not affected by wargear, additional hand weapons and so on..." (P62 C:SW) Irrelevant part omitted, Emphasis mine).

It says these attacks are not affected by wargear, it does not say that you can not use Grenades...

Are Grenades wargear?
Would using a grenade affect your Attacks?

If the answer is yes to both of those questions (and it is) you cannot use them.

It does not matter that Grenades are wargear.

Re-read the mark rules, remember that it says "These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and are hence not affected by wargear"

The attacks they are referring to are the models attacks characteristic which is now D6+1 instead of 1 or 2 or 4 in the case of thunderwolf cav...

X can be replaced because? The grenade rules say it's using it as a melee weapon(ie wargear) but with a limit on it's attack.
So how is that not using wargear?

No meltabombs.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It does not matter that Grenades are wargear.

Interesting. The quote you provided disagrees.

Re-read the mark rules, remember that it says "These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and are hence not affected by wargear"

The attacks they are referring to are the models attacks characteristic which is now D6+1 instead of 1 or 2 or 4 in the case of thunderwolf cav...

Correct! And your interpretation allows wargear to modify the number of attacks. That would be breaking the rule.

"These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and are hence not affected by wargear" is refering to the models D6+1.

Grenades only give 1 attack so you are not affecting the D6+1 attacks with the grenade...

They are substituting them, how is that not effecting them?

 DeathReaper wrote:
"These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and are hence not affected by wargear" is refering to the models D6+1.

Grenades only give 1 attack so you are not affecting the D6+1 attacks with the grenade...

Replacing them is not affecting them?
Are you really sure?

So if the attacks are "not affected by wargear," wouldn't that mean ANY wargear? You know, since it doesn't say otherwise?

So, does that make someone with Mark of the Wulfen immune to Shardnets?

Not sure if someone mentioned this but the codex says it affects the attacks characteristic of the model, not what it's using to attack. If he can't use melta bombs then wouldn't it be the same as saying he can't use any ranged weapons? It's sounding like some people are interpreting MotW as negating all the wargear a SW carries and that model can ONLY use his MotW attacks.

MOTW does only apply to cc attacks, it ignores any wargear you would use in cc as a weapon. And unless you can show that using grenades in cc isn't using a weapon nor is it using wargear to effect the model's attacks then this is probably finished.

So no it's not the same as saying he cannot use a bolter unless a bolter is a melee weapon.

Would a Wolf Standard then not work with MotW? A slippery slope i see.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Would a Wolf Standard then not work with MotW? A slippery slope i see.

It is not his peice of Wargear unless you give it to the WotW model.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
Would a Wolf Standard then not work with MotW? A slippery slope i see.

It is not his peice of Wargear unless you give it to the WotW model.

As far as the rule reads it does not need to be a piece of "his" wargear. Unless I have quoted the rule from above wrong.

"A model bearing the Mark of the Wulfen has the Rending special rule in close combat. Furthermore he replaces his usual Attacks characteristic with [Deleted], rolled immediately prior to when the model makes his attacks. These attacks are made using the marked models' claws and teeth, and are hence not affected by wargear, additional hand weapons and so on..." (P62 C:SW) Irrelevant part omitted, Emphasis mine).

How about an opponent's wargear? Power armour is listed on a Space Makrine profile as wargear. That 3+ save affects the attacks made my my models' claws and teeth. Therefore Space Marines get no save against MotW attacks because power armour breaks the rules of wargear affecting MotW attacks.


Of course this is all just slippery slope talk that has no foundation in the rules. The rules answer it clearly with a resounding no, MotW models cannot make grenade attacks. The relevent entries are the MotW entry and the section of the BRB detailing characteristics.

The Attack characteristic can be modified per BRB. MotW does exactly this by replacing the model's Attack characteristic per its entry. However it then adds a caveat that this modification can not be affected by wargear as well as other things. Grenades being a piece of wargearthat modifies the Attack characteristic in its own way would be changing the already established MotW modification this affecting what it was to something else.

But how does this interact with the Wolf Standard or if said MotW model also hade a Wolf Tooth Necklace? It doesn't. Neither of those wargear options afrect the Attack characteristic of the model. They both affect to-hit rolls which are affecting the WS characteristic, not the Attack characteristic.

The only real issue that does come into affect is indeed wargear of enemies that do indeed affect the Attack characteristic such as was mentioned earlier, shard nets. While RAI would indicate that the wargear in question refers to the MotW model's wargear, RAW leaves it open to any wargear that would affect the Attack characteristic.

You don't use the standard in the same phase as you unfurl it so it doesn't matter if the MOTW guy holds it.

It wouldnt matter anyway LoB as the Wolf Standard does not affct the Attack characteristics of the MotW model. It allows to hit rerolls of 1's which is a function of the BS characteristic.