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So I was playing around with my CSM list trying to find that magical "something" and stumbled across an old favorite of mine from the chaos deamons books when looking for allies. The Herald of Slaanesh on a steed of slaanesh with a greater gift and and the Exalted Locus of Beguilement! This Locus allows for you to force challenges in CC with a chosen character. So if you can get this guy/gal/thing? into combat by itself it will likely dismantle and kill the entire screamer star without help.

You will need to get the charge off on the screamer star so that will be the difficult part even with fleet and cavalry but using it as a counter assault unit would be best. The best part about this is you don't even have to commit the large group of seeker cavalry to fight in fact you are better off breaking the herald off and assaulting the screamer star by itself to avoid spillover wounds from demonic stabmyselfinthefaceability as your unit get annihilated. No overwatch means you don't need to worry about getting dropped on the charge and as soon as your there challenge out the grimoire gut him and move onto the next herald rinse and repeat until the group detonated from instability tests or the heralds are gone.

As far as the Jetseer council this character isn't nearly as good unfortunately due to needing to charge with a group or risk being ripped apart by overwatch (In fact the best way to charge the seerstar would be to charge with one or two guys that "will" die to overwatch as you go in). Problem is that they will likely have a re-rollable hit and run dark Eldar jerk if they are running the "proper" council. Your best hope is to then single out a necessary power in the group (Fortune!) and kill it. You have ap 2 attacks so they will only get a reroll in their invuln but even then they are likely to have rolled multiple "necessary" powers but hey that what it is.

I acknowledge that winning the one on one combats aren't perfect (Don't underestimate that 4++ re-roll) but it was just a random idea I found looking through my dex. Hopefully this might help those few slaanesh players out there.../shrug

I thought the screamerstar had hit and run?

Lanlaorn wrote:
I thought the screamerstar had hit and run?

Nope, they can't get hit-and-run but honestly even if you threw a group of 30 gaunts at them they are likely to grind through them in 2-3 player turns of CC depending on who charges. Against anything without fearless they will basically murderfy it without trying because they do not take wounds. So hit and run is usually a moot point but an important one in this case. Not sure what to do about the Eldar council, they really should have never let units mix it's bad enough you can cast powers on each other but the crazy rules overlaps you get with mixed units is a little annoying. Luckily they realized this with chaos/CSM and stopped that kind of shenanigans... then promptly forgot that was a fantastic and effective idea with the next dex...

This is a great counter. A guy in my area has used it to good effect. He pointed it out to me and it seems legit. You just have to get it into the screamerstar which any experienced played with deathly try to avoid.

It gets even better when you lower their invulnerable save by 1 with your own Grimoire.

Yeah its a solid counter to the Screamerstar, but that is partly because its much easier to pin them down and connect with the Herald. The issue with Slaanesh units has always been their durability, and against a combat based army like Daemons they can at least hit one assault before coming apart. Against Eldar you are much less likely to pull this off, for starters Farseers are much tougher to kill than Heralds (T4, 4++ re-rollable vs 5++ re-rolling 1's and 3 wounds vs 2 wounds) and would have a decent chance of killing a Slaanesh Herald in return. With the Baron they aren't going to stick around for multiple turns for you to finish them off either. The main issue though is that Eldar can just shoot you off the board before you connect with the Council which has the edge in mobility to control the engagement (and again they can Hit and Run away if you pin them with something else), a couple of Serpents/Venoms or even the Council itself at close range can make a big mess out of any Slaanesh unit.

Color me confused.

How does getting the guy in a challenge negate his 2++ rerollable save?

 Jimsolo wrote:
How does getting the guy in a challenge negate his 2++ rerollable save?

Because the Grimoire doesn't benefit the guy carrying it. He would only have at best a 4++, re-rolling 1s. Then if you kill him, you work on the guys with forewarning.

Got it. Sorry, never faced one before, only heard about them.

So, all you really have to do is kill him out of the squad, yeah? Is a Vindicare assassin just as good at doing that?

Vindicares are one of the good ways, I personally think mindstrike missiles would be better (with some prescience). The advantage of Darkwater's method is that until the counter-star herald dies, the screamer star can't do anything but give re-rolls to the grimoire herald, meaning no flickering fires and no charging units.
Another GK counter, incidentally, is a Librarian with a warding stave and the divination power that allows you to re-roll hits, wounds, and saving throws. A re-rollable 2++ makes a good tarpit (or a dead libby if you don't roll a 5 when you pick your powers).

Barrage weapons could be pretty effective, a manticore with a nearby inquisitor to prescience it. That's 3+ to hit (reroll scatter looking for a hit) although you need to drop on average 12 hits (2 failed LOS = 1 failed save = 1 instant death).

Course if I were playing star Id try to utilise the bottom floor of ruimmunity for barrage immunity (where possible)

Another plus side is that manticores are awesome against everyone anyway. Killing fateweaver is really the best way of reducing the stars effectiveness.

So, why wouldn't the Screamer Star player just heroic intervention on the next turn? It's forced to accept the challenge, but nothing says it has to stay in it. And, once the intervention has gone off, there's no way for your beguilement model to get it back, as it'll be ground down by one of the other heralds.

Crazyterran wrote:
So, why wouldn't the Screamer Star player just heroic intervention on the next turn? It's forced to accept the challenge, but nothing says it has to stay in it. And, once the intervention has gone off, there's no way for your beguilement model to get it back, as it'll be ground down by one of the other heralds.

Nasty idea, although I think there might be some items for Slaanesh that give initiative penalties which could offeset the risk of intervention (which has only a 50/50 chance of working anyway).

Acquiescence is a -5 initiative malediction with 18" range (4+ deny the witch though).

Locus of Beguilement says that challenges must be accepted but from memory I don't think it requires that the guy holding the locus be the challenger so you could happily plow your keeper of secrets or bloodthirster in there along side and have him do the actual smiting for a much better chance at one shotting.

Also im pretty sure a 2w 4++ t3 model will die to a slaanesh herald no problem on the charge

Except a tz herald on disc isnt t3.

To be frank, you wont ever get the charge off from the unit to the screamers.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Also im pretty sure a 2w 4++ t3 model will die to a slaanesh herald no problem on the charge

Well it depends, your opponent probably has his reroll still available from fateweaver which means you need to do on average 6 wounding hits to get past his 4++ (with 1 reroll). If he got precognition (think that's the one that gives the psyker rerolls) then its 8 wounding hits (4++ with rerolling failed). Better to use a greater daemon if you can, more attacks and instant death. That'd be harder to pull off though since both units would have to engage at the same time (for the locus and the challenger).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
Except a tz herald on disc isnt t3.

To be frank, you wont ever get the charge off from the unit to the screamers.

If the herald is on a steed and makes use of LOS terrain he can force the charge (or force area denial while you focus on blowing up fateweaver).

With a 36 inch move from the screamers and herald no he cant .

MarkyMark wrote:
With a 36 inch move from the screamers and herald no he cant .

:

You mean a 12" move and a 24" Turbo boost. Any turn you are not shooting is a good turn for the opponent . With only a 24" shooting range on the heralds, a steed with herald on can move into some LOS blocking terrain midfield and be reasonable confident of getting a charge off, unless the star stays back at which point you are denying 90% of the opposing armies shooting. The trick will be keeping out of sight but still ob position to provide that area denial (see my previous post).

The easier tactic to counter it is to conga line with the book at the back so he can't even accept the challenge legally.

The best bet though is probably just to go second (to avoid turn 5 autoloose due to contesting) and drown your opponent in MSU fearless units

The best counter is GK Stormraven, dropping Peril-plates from on high.

SJ

 greyknight12 wrote:
Vindicares are one of the good ways, I personally think mindstrike missiles would be better (with some prescience). The advantage of Darkwater's method is that until the counter-star herald dies, the screamer star can't do anything but give re-rolls to the grimoire herald, meaning no flickering fires and no charging units.
Another GK counter, incidentally, is a Librarian with a warding stave and the divination power that allows you to re-roll hits, wounds, and saving throws. A re-rollable 2++ makes a good tarpit (or a dead libby if you don't roll a 5 when you pick your powers).

Just take a cheap GK Champion who can reroll his own 2+ saves stock.

So if I'm reading this correctly, a guy has a decent but not perfect counter to an unbalanced deathstar, that at least one other person independently confirmed, and easily half of the responses are:
"You'll never get to charge them" (seriously?! you're bad.)
or
"GK are better"

Crazy trolls, his tactic is the exact reason there is a Tactics forum. The description of this forum includes "counters for deathstar units".

Least helpful feedback ever. (From some of you.)

Thanks, OP, for properly utilizing the correct forum for exactly what it is supposed to be for (not "lulzors nids are bad no biomancy waaah"). Appreciate the discussion.

Very easy way around this. Have a daemon prince hold the grimoire instead. He then casts it on the screamerstar unit and whoever you challange will still be 2++ reroll. Some players put the grimoire on a herald but other like to have FMC hold it in case they want to shift it elsewhere. You're right though that forcing a herald with the grimoire to accept the challenge and then killing him would be an effective counter. The screamerstar has a lot of shooting though and if you're not careful will drop your lord before he gets into CC. With 4 heralds lvl 3 and only needing forewarning and prescience in terms of buffing it leaves you with 10 warp points to spend on flickingflame. 3 charges = 4d6 so around 12 d6 prescienced str6 ap 4 attacks. That can do some damage.

If your lord is running with something that wont protect him from shooting daemons will still drop you. Screamerstar is never the only threat. You're going to have FMC and vector strikes/psychic shriek out the ass. I'm not saying it wont work just saying its never a sure thing.

jakl277 wrote:
Very easy way around this. Have a daemon prince hold the grimoire instead. He then casts it on the screamerstar unit and whoever you challange will still be 2++ reroll. Some players put the grimoire on a herald but other like to have FMC hold it in case they want to shift it elsewhere.

PLEASE do this, then all I have to do is kill the daemon prince and your expencive deathstar dies. Any army can do that quite easily. Thanks for the easy win.

Naugatan wrote:

jakl277 wrote:
Very easy way around this. Have a daemon prince hold the grimoire instead. He then casts it on the screamerstar unit and whoever you challange will still be 2++ reroll. Some players put the grimoire on a herald but other like to have FMC hold it in case they want to shift it elsewhere.

PLEASE do this, then all I have to do is kill the daemon prince and your expencive deathstar dies. Any army can do that quite easily. Thanks for the easy win.

This. The entire point is to have the Grimoire protecting itself.

@ductvader:
Screamers can have S5 AP2 attacks. Armor saves don't help you there. But you could try Brother-Captain Stern's warp vacuum

jakl277 wrote:
Very easy way around this. Have a daemon prince hold the grimoire instead

Most people won't expect the slanesh challenge character though.
The entire reason the herald carries it is to keep the grimoire alive, embedded in a 2++ rerollable unit. If you put it on anything else, it risks being singled out by massive shooting or assaulted.

I agree with the above posters though about using a daemon prince to engage the grimoire herald though, anything worth doing is worth overdoing (especially in this case). And with wings, he/she can still move fast enough to catch the screamer star. The biggest advantage I see to this is that like some of the GK counters it has a good chance of working and has other uses outside this particular matchup.