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2014/01/14 16:39:20
Subject: 1750 White Scars vs Eldar, Competitive Tournament Preparation, VASSAL Pics [Completed!]
Welcome to another Warhammer 40k battle report in my series of tournament preparation for the Las Vegas Open! This week, I’ll be piloting my White Scars with Tau allies against General Mawr playing Eldar/Dark Eldar Seer Council. The next mission on the list is The Relic & Big Guns Never Tire.
Eldar/Dark Eldar List
Spoiler:
Eldar and Dark Eldar Allies (1749/1750)
Eldar (1414 pts)
HQ Farseer (Jetbike, Runes of Witnessing, Shard of Anaris)
Farseer (Jetbike, Runes of Witnessing, Firesabre)
HQ Chapter Master (Artificer Armor, Bike, Power Fist, The Shield Eternal)
Librarian (Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, ML2)
Commander (Command and Control Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite, Puretide Engram Neurochip, Vectored Retro-thrusters, Shield Generator)
Troops Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Grav-gun)
Bike Squad (2x Meltagun)
Kroot Carnivore Squad (10 Kroot)
Heavy Support Centurion Devastator Squad (Omniscope, 4x with Grav-cannon, Grav-amp, and Missile Launcher)
Thunderfire Cannon
XV88 Broadside Team (3x with Twin-linked high-yield missile pods and EWO, 5x Missile Drones)
I roll for my Warlord trait and pick Legendary Fighter, as I expect the Chapter Master may be able to beat up some space elves and take their lunch money. The Librarian gets Invisibility and promises to be useful this game. He also technically gets Dominate, but between the Leadership of the Seer Council, 4+ Deny the Witch (DtW) and the fact that I’m probably going to cast Invisibility every turn I don’t really think I’ll be using Dominate.
Eldar Pre-Game Thoughts
Spoiler:
Although Seer Council is a tough unit to crack, Ricter's list is going to be a challenge to go up against. The Seer Council relies heavily on the 2++ armour save granted from the combination of riding a jetbike (3++ armour) and Protect/Jinx (+1 to armour save) as well as Runes of Fate power Fortune (reroll failed saves). The massed Grav weapons and the orbital bombardment Ricter is bringing to the table. means I will be relying heavily on my jink save. Fortunately the warlocks primaris power. Conseal/Reveal, grants the Seer council Shrowded and Barron Sathonyx grants the unit Stealth resulting in a 2++ cover save. If I am lucky enough to roll Forwarning on the Divination table then I can least count on a 4++ invulnerable save if I am denied my cover save. My plan is to move in quickly with the seer council and neutralize the Centurion unit before they do too much damage. Unfortunately I know Ricter will use his Chapter Master to tank wounds for the squad making it very unlikely that I will be able to kill the unit before incurring significant losses. I could try to tie up the Centurions in melee to avoid their shooting attacks but White Scars all have Hit and Run so I won't be able to rely on this tactic. Since I cannot rely on killing the Centurions from a frontal assault I will try to maneuver my Venoms around the back of the Centurions so that wounds will be allocated to them instead of the Centurions. I will hold my Wave Serpents and Dire Averengers back for late game objective claiming.
White Scars Pre-Game Thoughts
Spoiler:
So, a new Death Star for me to fight, this time of the pointy-eared variety. To be honest, looking at it, I struggle to see it as being as nasty as the Screamerstar. It has weaker psychic shooting, a weaker invulnerable save (key against my list) and is much less potent in assault. Additionally, my list can assemble Voltron to save the day (i.e. Chapter Master, Tau Commander and Grav Centurions) which will work much better than against the Screamerstar.
However, the rest of the list is much, much more threatening. The high amount of Poisoned weapons really are going to hurt, and Bladestorm isn’t exactly weak against me either. Basically, I’m not going to get much mileage out of my 5 Toughness this game.
I’m not too concerned about the Wave Serpents, as the S7 shots aren’t that scary. Sure, they wound on 2’s, but they’ll only average ~2 Wounds, of which I’ll get normal Armor Saves. I notice that the Eldar list in general lacks AP 2/3 shooting and templates.
I manage to actually win the roll to go first, despite the Baron’s +1 bonus for the Eldar. But… I don’t take it. The Eldar list doesn’t really look like it has that scary of an alpha strike, rather its advantages are immense mobility and/or high durability. Neither of these means I should take first turn. Further, in my deployment zone, I have a big enough piece of area terrain to plant my entire army in, allowing me a 4+ cover save minimum on top of my armor save. He can’t punish me for clumping, either, as he only has a few weak template weapons.
More importantly, however, is that by taking the second turn I can have the final say on the objectives (and since there are two sets, they are even more critical than in most games). With his borderline ridiculous mobility (and this is coming from a White Scars player!), he can avoid fighting for much of the game, and then claim/contest objectives on the last turn quite easily and steal a win. This way, however, I’m going to force the puny space elves to actually fight.
I think that this is actually very critical in this matchup – I force the brawl, and I am very prepared for that.
We get Nightfighting, and here’s Deployment:
I clump up in the only available cover, just in case the Eldar have some AP2/3 weapons I missed when reading their list. Also, this basically puts two of the Big Guns Never Tire objectives easily within my grasp, and a third within shooting range and Line of Sight(LoS). Just to clarify, the Chapter Master and Tau Commander are both with the Centurions (and will be the entire game) and the Librarian is with the Broadsides.
Eldar T1
Spoiler:
The Eldar turn… a whole lot of nothing. He casts every Blessing he can on the Seer Council, but none of the Maledictions are in range. Basically he has to use his Shooting phase to move closer to me with many units (Seer Council is the important one). This is partially why I didn’t deploy right up on the edge like I usually do. The few units that are in range try to shoot up the Chapter Master and the Centurions to almost no effect (the Chapter Master takes a wound). He’s out of assault range, too, so that makes for a short and simple turn.
Space Marines T1
Spoiler:
Now it’s my turn to see how nasty the Centurions can really be. I start off by trying to cast Invisibility, excited to see its potential… 6 and a 6. Perils on my first die roll of the game. Librarian… I just… moving on. I shuffle around in the woods some with my infantry, basically to make sure that the Chapter Master remains the closest model. Both Biker squads split off to flank, but to be honest I had my doubts about this maneuver. The green Biker squad has a lot of potential enemies to face and not a lot of support fire, while the black Biker squad is at risk of running off the board, and not really in striking distance of anything important the next turn. But luckily this is a practice game, so I decide to risk it.
The Broadsides, thanks to Night Vision, plow through the exposed Venom, even with Flickerfields. The Thunderfire Cannon obliterates the survivors. First Blood, Space Marines, and an enemy Troop already gone. For a cherry on top, one of the Thunderfire rounds scatters all the way to the other Venom and manages to stun it! I pick out one of the important Warlocks (the now blood spurt in the back) and paste him with an Orbital Strike (barely). 4++ rerollable is still tough, but not good enough. The Centurions, not to be outdone, open fire and smear the 5 closest Warlocks into gooey glittery giblets. The black Biker Squad tries to fire on the Seer Council as well, and may as well not spent the ammunition. The green Biker squad tries to finish off the damaged Venom but fails.
Honestly, this was an amazing first turn for me. Pretty much everything went my way. Even if none of my shooting was over the top (even the Centurions net 4 Warlocks on average, so 5 isn’t that far above), it was still great and did what I needed it to do.
Eldar T2
Spoiler:
The Eldar shove everything forward to try to unleash their vengeance. The Seer Council casts basically every power it can, although its Maledictions get shut down by DtW. Between the Seer Council shooting and two Wave Serpents, I take a total of 11 Wounds on my Centurions… and promptly take 3 wounds on my Chapter Master, killing him, 2 wounds on my Tau Commander, and a wound on another Centurion, losing 6 Wounds on some of my most valuable models! Eight 2+ saves and three 3+ saves… ugh. I guess my army was too busy celebrating to realize they should probably make sure they don’t die. Regardless, I make a big mistake here – I forgot that the Tau Commander has 4 Wounds, and I could have kept them both alive with 1 Wound each instead of 2 Wounds left on the Tau Commander.
And why is this a big deal? Because the Seer Council multi-assaults my Centurions and black Biker squad. It requires a rather large assault distance, but they make it in because of Fleet. I really underestimate how good that ability is. Of course, without the Chapter Master, I have nothing to actually really hurt the Seer Council. The Sergeant of the Biker squad bravely challenges and actually survives his encounter with a Farseer. The Seer Council only inflicts a few Wounds, but I can’t manage to cause any damage back (I forgot to grant myself Counterattack). The black Biker squad unfortunately fails their Morale and runs off the board, while the Centurions Hit and Run out courtesy of the Tau Commander. The Eldar decide it’s better to risk the Baron to my impending shooting, and decide to push him to the front.
Not so hot of a turn for me… nearly 400 points lost, and lots of Wounds on critical models for this matchup.
White Scars T2
Spoiler:
My Kroot come in, but my last Biker squad does not. Acute Senses nets me the right table edge, so I push the Kroot all the way back into the corner in an attempt to split the Eldar attention. They hoof it (get it?) to the nearest cover/objective.
My Librarian actually manifests Invisibility, but I promptly forget about it by the Eldar turn because I still think I had suffered from Perils. The Centurions try to shuffle around the Baron but fail to move far with their Difficult Terrain test quite gloriously. I move the Librarian in to join them, expecting another assault. The green Biker squad swoops around to finish off the stunned Venom.
The Centurions, Broadsides, and Thunderfire Cannon combine their fire on the Seer Council to… absolutely no effect. The Baron tanks everything but the TFC, and that also fails to cause any damage. The green Biker squad doesn’t shoot because I want to take out both the Warriors and their Venom this turn.
Which doesn’t really go as planned. I kill 4 Warriors, but the last one escapes, and I cause little or no damage to the Venom. I decide not to assault the Seer Council, as I’m not really sure I can cause important damage to it in assault and I’m not scared of its shooting.
Eldar T3
Spoiler:
All of the blessings go off for the Eldar. The lone Warrior manages to rally, and both Wave Serpents drift around. The Venom and one Wave Serpent combine fire to kill two Bikers, but they pass their Morale. The rest of the Eldar shooting is ineffective.
The Seer Council assaults, determined to bring down the Centurions. Basically, everyone simply stands there looking pretty… until the Tau Commander goes. He wounds the Baron 3 times, and actually kills him! Not how I expected him to go down, but this is a big deal. I Hit & Run out and prepare to smear the rest of the Seer Council.
White Scars T3
Spoiler:
Last(teal) Biker squad comes in, and rushes the exposed Wave Serpent. The other(green) remaining Biker squad follows suit and goes after the other Wave Serpent. The Librarian manifests Invisibility on the teal Biker squad.
Shooting evaporates 3 Warlocks and one of the Farseers, but leaves the last Farseer (also his Warlord) untouched. Damn! Since I’ve already lost my Warlord I’m really looking to get the bonus point from Slay the Warlord for myself. The green Bike squad gloriously obliterates its target Wave Serpent in just shooting alone. The teal Biker… may have well not come on the table this turn.
The Dire Avengers from the north Wave Serpent are pinned… which I think means they can’t fire Overwatch. Pro tip: it doesn’t. I lose a Biker to Overwatch, but somehow win the assault and scare off the remaining Dire Avengers.
Eldar T4
Spoiler:
At this point, the Eldar player is desperately looking to deny me any points he can and scrounge up a few for himself. He flees with the remaining Wave Serpent, rallies the Dire Avengers, and Turbo-Boosts his Farseer to join them next turn. Shooting kills a Kroot and a Biker from teal squad, despite Invisibility on the latter.
White Scars T4
Spoiler:
Green and teal Biker squad move to finish their targets, while the Kroot and Centurions squad chase objectives. I choose not to move the Broadsides to fire at the Wave Serpent, which is probably a mistake.
My shooting and subsequent assault wipes out the remaining Wave Serpent and all of its Dire Avengers, as well as many of the Dire Avengers from the squad on foot. I end up overestimating the firepower needed to remove the Wave Serpent, and my TFC ends up firing at the Farseer for kicks but causes no damage, however it does manage to paste a few Dire Avengers. The Kroot, without a better target, do the same… and wound him!
Eldar T5
Spoiler:
Down to an Independent Character and a squad, things are not looking so good for the Eldar.
Regardless, the Farseer blesses himself and abandons the Dire Avengers to their fate, instead trying to kill my teal Biker squad. He manages to kill one in shooting and they fail their morale, putting them out of his assault range. Ooops.
The Dire Avengers lose one of their number, but hold tight. I fail Hit & Run’s test, so I can’t shoot them down on my turn either.
White Scars T5
Spoiler:
I move my free teal Biker squad to grab the Relic next turn, if the game goes on, and position the Broadsides to be able to claim the objective the Centurions are holding. Everything fires at the Farseer as he is the only valid target, but I just can’t manage to bring him down. My green Biker squad squash another Dire Avenger, but they stubbornly hold.
Unfortunately for the Eldar, the game continues, meaning a tabling is quite possible.
Eldar T6
Spoiler:
The Farseer rushes my teal Biker squad, trying to prevent me from getting the Relic. He fails to cause any damage to them, however. The Dire Avengers hold, but I Hit & Run out, leaving them exposed. The spread out in a futile attempt to prevent their slaughter.
White Scars T6
Spoiler:
The green Biker squad and Kroot finally finish off the Dire Avengers, shooting down every man/woman/elf-thing remaining. The Centurions move up to help kill the Farseer, and manage to bring him down through weight of attacks in assault.
The game ends here as the Eldar are tabled.
No one has the Relic, as I failed to move to pick it up in time with the Farseer tying up my Biker squad in assault. The White Scars have the secondary (Big Guns Never Tire) 9-0, giving them 3 more points. They also have First Blood, Linebreaker and Slay the Warlord.
White Scars Win 6 - 1!
Eldar Post-Game Thoughts
Spoiler:
Just as I suspected Ricter's list is a bad matchup for the Seer Council and Eldar in general. The prevalence of grav weapons drastically reduces the surivability of not only the Seer council but also the Wave Serpents, as the Serpent shield essentially becomes worthless. Ricter's orbital bombardment ripped through the Seer council pretty readily since the Tau commander ignored the jink save. The Kabalite warriors were not in their element and got gunned down rather quickly. During most of the game all I could think was how much I need a durable close-combat unit to put the hurt on his Centurions and Broadsides. Ultimately I see the potential of the Seer council but when facing Ricter I would have rather spent my points elsewhere.
White Scars Post-Game Thoughts
Spoiler:
So now I can check off facing the other most popular Deathstar list. To be honest, the Seer Council is not nearly as scary for my list. Its shooting is much worse, and it lacks the volume of AP 2/3 attacks (both in shooting and assault) in order to really threaten me. The dreaded multi-assault did knock off a unit, but they didn’t come close to getting their points back.
I think, critically, my opponent split his forces up too much. My bikes were able to benefit from their fire support, and I almost always had plenty of targets to shoot at. This was important because I could choose to shoot at another target when I wouldn’t cause damage to the Seer Council, or I could switch a unit’s target when their planned target was already destroyed. While this is usually true, a highly mobile list can deny this flexibility, which wasn’t done.
White Scars List Thoughts The Chapter Master really misses Feel No Pain. Every game he dies or has to stop tanking Wounds because he’s only got one Wound remaining it really shows. And this happens almost every game. He still earns his keep when he does this… but when he had Feel No Pain he could keep going all game.
The Librarian... one game he will be useful. One game. I’m really struggling to justify him, and figure out which table of powers is actually useful against most opponents. Sure, I can pick out 1-2 powers that would be great to have. But without the 7-12 rolls of Eldar or Daemons, I can’t really count on getting the useful powers.
The Tau Commander performed quite admirably, between enabling the Centurions to slaughter the Warlocks, tanking Wounds after the Chapter Master fell and killing the Baron in Assault. Think on that, elf. He’s not really worth it on many low-value targets, but against the critical targets he shines.
Kroot and Bikers did their jobs, just as I had hoped.
The Centurions were fantastic. Every game I’ve been impressed with their performance, even when they don’t have the Tau Commander in the unit or the Chapter Master bites it. I’ve read a lot of complaints/thoughts online that Devastator Centurions are overcosted or just not worth the points, but I’m finding that to simply not be the case. They do need proper support; you can’t just tack them on to the list. But they definitely pull their weight through volume of shots alone.
The Broadsides are reliable, but nothing spectacular. They do well every game, without shining or failing on me. Very consistent unit.
The Thunderfire Cannon… ugh. I keep bringing him to keep horde armies in check, but let’s be honest, how many horde armies are really tournament viable these days? This game he pulled his weight by cleaning up two Warrior squads, killing some Dire Avengers, and stunning a Venom, but it’s been a long while since I’ve felt satisfied with its performance.
Eldar List Thoughts The Seer Council just isn’t as threatening as the Screamerstar, at least in my opinion. The Screamerstar has very potent shooting and a large number of AP 2 attacks to make for scary assaults. Obviously the Screamerstar isn’t as reliable or as mobile (no Hit & Run) but I’m just not very impressed with the damage output of the Seer Council.
From all the Internet hype, I honestly expected a lot more out of the Wave Serpents. Admittedly I think Grav-guns are a powerful solution for them, since they basically ignore their shields, but I didn’t find their firepower as “OP” as a lot of threads complain.
That being said, I definitely see the scary parts of this list. Obviously I was playing an opponent that wasn’t very familiar with piloting the list, and that counts for a lot. Some lucky saves mean that the Seer Council may never really die, and they only need one multi-assault to go well in order to run multiple units off the board. I did deny most of my opponent’s Maledictions as well. The Serpent’s firepower was still respectable and I was surprised at how much damage the Dire Avengers caused.
Thanks for reading. Feel free to add your comments! Especially appreciated are playstyle/tactic criticisms, as this is the army (if not the list) I plan on bringing to several tournaments this year.
What powers did he have for the seer council?
Did he really roll that badly with a 2+ armour, cover and 4+ inv?
Did he get fortune, doom or prescience?
Wave serpents are much better when there are over 2.
He wasted many many points on upgrades and extra bodies.
Did he roll badly with his shooting with the seer council needing 2+ and 3+ to hit with twin linked?
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2014/01/15 16:07:14
Subject: 1750 White Scars vs Eldar, Competitive Tournament Preparation, VASSAL Pics [Completed!]
What powers did he have for the seer council?
Did he really roll that badly with a 2+ armour, cover and 4+ inv?
Did he get fortune, doom or prescience?
Wave serpents are much better when there are over 2.
He wasted many many points on upgrades and extra bodies.
Did he roll badly with his shooting with the seer council needing 2+ and 3+ to hit with twin linked?
2: 2+ armor/cover doesn't matter when my shots are AP2 & Ignores Cover. A 4+ re-rollable is only a 75% chance of a save - my Centurions still kill ~4 warlocks a turn on average.
3: Yes, no, yes.
4. Fair enough. I'm still not really impressed with their shooting as a White Scars player, however, and their defensive upgrades are basically wasted points on me.
5. Seer Council is generally pretty large - I didn't see this as out of the ordinary.
6. Even 20 S4 shots is not that impressive against T5 2+. Even with Fortune active, if the entire unit is in range/LOS, it'll still only get 1 wound through on average.
Reason I asked is because he kept a lot of useless powers.
Like Precognition, Foreboding, Forwarning.
What was waisted points are the 10 man avenger squads with exarch and the exarch's toys wich would have been enough points for a wraithknight (WK is an example).
This is not being mean, I watched a friend of mine play this seer star Vs space marines kinda like your (only he had more cents and bikes, and no tau) and they were unkillable (probably because the lack of ignore cover from the tau commander) and this is the exact oppisite.
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2014/01/15 19:19:20
Subject: Re:1750 White Scars vs Eldar, Competitive Tournament Preparation, VASSAL Pics [Completed!]
Thanks for great report. I really prefere vassal pictures and text than video.
What's your strategy against armies with lots of AP2 ignor cover weapons, like 3-4 riptides with commander or markerlights. Do you still protect your cent. squad with tanking CM ?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/15 19:20:07
2014/01/15 20:13:53
Subject: 1750 White Scars vs Eldar, Competitive Tournament Preparation, VASSAL Pics [Completed!]
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed. We have another one coming soon of White Scars versus a more traditional Eldar list.
Arbiter wrote:Reason I asked is because he kept a lot of useless powers.
Like Precognition, Foreboding, Forwarning.
What was waisted points are the 10 man avenger squads with exarch and the exarch's toys wich would have been enough points for a wraithknight (WK is an example).
This is not being mean, I watched a friend of mine play this seer star Vs space marines kinda like your (only he had more cents and bikes, and no tau) and they were unkillable (probably because the lack of ignore cover from the tau commander) and this is the exact oppisite.
Forewarning is not useless at all. 4++ rerollable is incredibly useful when I have 20 twin-linked, AP 2, wounds on 2+, Ignores Cover shots. I could have wiped out the Seer Council in a single turn if it wasn't for this power!
Precog and Forewarning weren't that useful (Precog stopped me from assaulting him first, which is a tactic he knows I use). But even then, so what? He already had Prescience. If you already have the Primaris Power, you're going to end up with useless powers sometimes. He got all the critical powers except for maybe Doom, I feel like (but Fortune, Prescience, Forewarning were all more important this game).
Edit: The Tau Commander is what makes the difference, and partially why he is in the list. The Tau Commander turns each kill your friend saw in his game into nine. Thus, instead of getting 5-6 early Warlock kills, I would have been lucky to get 1.
Tyfus wrote:Thanks for great report. I really prefere vassal pictures and text than video.
What's your strategy against armies with lots of AP2 ignor cover weapons, like 3-4 riptides with commander or markerlights. Do you still protect your cent. squad with tanking CM ?
The correct answer is, of course, "it depends", but I'll give you a general idea to work with and then you'll have to decide how terrain, mission objectives and the rest of the army list factors in.
The Chapter Master, Librarian and Tau Commander all have Invulnerable saves specifically so they can tank for the 2-3 key units in a match against AP 2 ignore cover weapons like you bring up. I try to prioritize killing/assaulting anything that grants Ignores Cover and use LoS with all of my units that don't have a tanking character (SMS doesn't really bother my army much).
For example, let's say he's going quadtide, going first, but could only squeeze in one unit of Pathfinders because of quadtide + buff commander. I would probably put the Librarian with the Centurions and the Chapter Master with the Broadsides while the Tau Commander joins the Thunderfire Cannon. Then attempt to sieze, and use the Tau Commander + TFC to paste the pathfinders. This drastically reduces the effectiveness of all but one of the Riptides. The final Riptide can be assaulted or focused down (the Cents will cause 11 AP 2 wounds and 2 AP3 S8 wounds to the Riptide + Commander pair on average, for example).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/15 20:15:53
Very enjoyable, I liked Vassal because you got to easily see the whole play board throughout the match.
2 Edit 3*Questions
What do you do against 2x Heldrakes?
2x Heldrakes would be difficult even for my army although I do have a ways to get around them. I'm curious to how you would try and go about getting around them as you stated back in one of your previous threads that you didn't want 2x stormtalons. I agree with your points as to why not to take them but I can't deny that 2x heldrakes were a big reason as to why 2x stormtalons are taken. They could honestly wipe your troops with relative ease in as short as 2 turns.
Do you feel your army is well capable of dealing with 2x FMC or more?
I personally think you are fine but through any test games if you've had any against 2x FMC how did they go?
Wraith Star List
If the wraith star player can effectively lock down the centurions and the broadsides.. you'll be on your back foot as they won't have too much trouble saturating shots into the bikers and then dropping off the warriors on the objectives.
Edit*
I only ask because I imagine these are the 2 forces that could cause serious problems and these are just things to think about as you have time to do something about it if you don't think you can deal with them already
2nd Edit*
Do you live anywhere close to Pasadena in California? I'd love to have a practice match against you before the tournament, I think it would be fun
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/16 09:30:23
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2014/01/16 19:58:29
Subject: 1750 White Scars vs Eldar, Competitive Tournament Preparation, VASSAL Pics [Completed!]
Nice scars list, thats pretty similar to something i have on the drawing board for LVO myself. Mine's tau primary though.
2013 Nova Open Tournament Champ- 2014 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/13th overall 2014 NOVA Open Second to One 2015 Las Vegas Open Best Tau Player/10th overall
@Ricter "Forewarning is not useless at all. 4++ rerollable is incredibly useful when I have 20 twin-linked, AP 2, wounds on 2+, Ignores Cover shots. I could have wiped out the Seer Council in a single turn if it wasn't for this power! "
The seer council has an auto 4+ inv because of rune armour..... Also why he didn't take psykic shriek is a interesting question.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 21:51:12
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2014/01/17 15:47:21
Subject: Re:1750 White Scars vs Eldar, Competitive Tournament Preparation, VASSAL Pics [Completed!]
Dezstiny wrote:First things first Great Battle Report!
Very enjoyable, I liked Vassal because you got to easily see the whole play board throughout the match.
2 Edit 3*Questions
What do you do against 2x Heldrakes?
2x Heldrakes would be difficult even for my army although I do have a ways to get around them. I'm curious to how you would try and go about getting around them as you stated back in one of your previous threads that you didn't want 2x stormtalons. I agree with your points as to why not to take them but I can't deny that 2x heldrakes were a big reason as to why 2x stormtalons are taken. They could honestly wipe your troops with relative ease in as short as 2 turns.
Do you feel your army is well capable of dealing with 2x FMC or more?
I personally think you are fine but through any test games if you've had any against 2x FMC how did they go?
Wraith Star List
If the wraith star player can effectively lock down the centurions and the broadsides.. you'll be on your back foot as they won't have too much trouble saturating shots into the bikers and then dropping off the warriors on the objectives.
Edit*
I only ask because I imagine these are the 2 forces that could cause serious problems and these are just things to think about as you have time to do something about it if you don't think you can deal with them already
2nd Edit*
Do you live anywhere close to Pasadena in California? I'd love to have a practice match against you before the tournament, I think it would be fun
Thanks!
Okay, first, if you're looking to take fliers to kill Heltalons, please, please, please take Stormravens. They are statistically better point-for-point at killing Heltalons than Stormtalons, and yes, I have run the numbers myself.
That being said, yes, Heltalons are a weakness of my list. However, the Broadsides take one down in a single round of shooting, on average (even without the Commander), which gives me some counter-threat. I also have 3 characters I can shift into units to tank for them. Finally, the Cents have decent odds of getting a damaging shot off, which severely limits their capability in future turns.
But really, the reason I don't take a Heltalon counter is simply this - the Stormraven/Stormtalon just don't carry their weight versus other lists, in my experience. I have plenty of Grav, so the Melta isn't really necessary (although it can be useful). I've found that I want to combine all my fire in an impressive alpha strike, and fliers don't fit that bill. Further, they greatly decrease my target saturation in my army. Look at my list - everywhere my opponent pays for Melta, Tank Hunters, Skyfire, Interceptor, AP1, etc is completely (or mostly in the case of Interceptor) points. Not only do fliers have to contend with actually pulling their weight, but also with the fact that they give opponents more efficient targets to shoot at.
I've had no problems with FMC, even when there were 4+. I have enough small units to ground them, and my Chapter Master has been able to hold his own against even a Blood Thirster on multiple occasions. My Thunderfire Cannon was basically useless, though. Heltalons are a much bigger concern since I can't ground them and then assault.
Unfortunately I'm in the Seattle area for now, so no game before the tournament. I wouldn't mind playing a practice match once I get there though!
thanatos67 wrote:Nice scars list, thats pretty similar to something i have on the drawing board for LVO myself. Mine's tau primary though.
Thanks. I had also thought about Tau Primary and may make the switch myself. Right now really the only thing preventing it is wanting to take the Thunderfire Cannon along with the Cents, and even that is debatable. I've been advised by several players whose advice I respect that the Librarian is completely worth it, but so far my experience has been quite the opposite (he's been even worse in the games I haven't wrote a report for).
Arbiter wrote:
The seer council has an auto 4+ inv because of rune armour.....
Also why he didn't take psykic shriek is a interesting question.
My bad, I didn't know that about rune armor, still, it doesn't negate the fact that there really weren't all that many other useful powers he could have taken at that point as he already had the key ones. I'm not really sure how useful Shriek would really be against my list, considering my two key units were Leadership 10 with 4/5+ DtW.
Thanks for all the replies so far and hope you all enjoyed reading.
Libby don`t really seem like he would be worth bringing with a cent-star list. Tiggy on the other hand... but then you loose white scar or your tau allies :/
Thanks for the report, I love seeing SeerStars lose, despite a somewhat weak list (I can say this without taking away from your victory, as you tabled him and could therefore plausibly have defeated a much stronger list).
I was wondering how big your bike squads were. You just said "bike squad", which I assume means 5-man, but the Bike Squads I personally run are 5-man, and include an Attack Bike. Others take a full 8-man + AB and combat squad. While the pictures were just fine, I had trouble seeing specific units (Centurions are especially hard to see).
At any rate, good work on beating one of the most annoying lists out there, seems that those Centurions just completely dominate SeerStars I may run into you in Vegas, I'll have a flippant anti-spam BeastStar list!
Keep writing reports (please), I like your list and would like to see it in action more often!
Thats no moon, thats a... no, wait... thats a moon.
Space marine librarians are pretty useless now. Just take the cheap 79 point divination inquisitor with servo skulls (to help couter scout moves) and psycho troke grenades to discourage assault on the cents even more.
I'd also trade out the thunderfire cannon for more bikes.
adding 2 multi-melta attack bikes or 4 more regular bikes really helps keep the grav gun toting bikes alive the whole game.
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2014/01/18 01:04:21
Subject: 1750 White Scars vs Eldar, Competitive Tournament Preparation, VASSAL Pics [Completed!]
Illumini wrote:Libby don`t really seem like he would be worth bringing with a cent-star list. Tiggy on the other hand... but then you loose white scar or your tau allies :/
Yeah, I'm wondering if I should cut him for something else. I would love to have Tiggy but unfortunately GW decided Space Marines don't believe in cooperation.
Xaereth wrote:Thanks for the report, I love seeing SeerStars lose, despite a somewhat weak list (I can say this without taking away from your victory, as you tabled him and could therefore plausibly have defeated a much stronger list).
I was wondering how big your bike squads were. You just said "bike squad", which I assume means 5-man, but the Bike Squads I personally run are 5-man, and include an Attack Bike. Others take a full 8-man + AB and combat squad. While the pictures were just fine, I had trouble seeing specific units (Centurions are especially hard to see).
At any rate, good work on beating one of the most annoying lists out there, seems that those Centurions just completely dominate SeerStars I may run into you in Vegas, I'll have a flippant anti-spam BeastStar list!
Keep writing reports (please), I like your list and would like to see it in action more often!
Yes, your assumption is correct. I run min-squad Bike Squads to get as many special weapons in my army as possible. I used to run Attack Bikes, but since they only count as 1 model towards minimum squad size I've cut them entirely.
Glad you enjoyed, and we have another report coming, written by my opponent this time (General Mawr) with him piloting a more traditional Eldar list.
Eihnlazer wrote:Space marine librarians are pretty useless now. Just take the cheap 79 point divination inquisitor with servo skulls (to help couter scout moves) and psycho troke grenades to discourage assault on the cents even more.
I'd also trade out the thunderfire cannon for more bikes.
adding 2 multi-melta attack bikes or 4 more regular bikes really helps keep the grav gun toting bikes alive the whole game.
I would love to, but LVO rules are 2 books only, so no Inquisitor for me. He was actually in my list before.
I've been strongly considering dropping both the libby and TFC, but I'm not sure if I really need more bikes. It would help keeping the grav gun bikes alive, and I do have the models.
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