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Hey gang,

I'm looking for a good, fairly simple beginner's wargame I can use to lure in with- I mean show my friends the joy of wargaming.

I'm preferably looking for something that's fairly easy to learn and quick to play, has force creation options so I can use figures I already have or whichever figures my friends like, and is easily expandable from skirmish to larger scale combat. I would like a game that can start off small but still handle unit based combat and I am looking mainly for sci-fi, but any suggestions would be welcome.

I have heard good things about [ur=http://wargamesunlimited.net/nolimits/index.htmll]No Limits[/url] and some of the stuff from Ganesha Games, and I am thinking of converting the Pathfinder Conflict supplement to allow for wargaming. Are there any other suggestions?

No limits is a good system, but it's not a beginner's ruleset. It's based on the mechanics of VOR which is about as complicated (though with far fewer special rules) as 40k.

Song of Blades and Heroes (by Ganesha games) is by far the best simple wargame I've played and I've played alot. Not only is it great for beginners, but the flexibility and customizability of it makes it great for experienced players who want a streamlined experience. Also, as it allows you to stat and play any miniature you want, newbies can use whatever minis they like the look of. My club of vet's does a yearly campaign of it and after 3 years it's still one of our favorite games.

If you want to see what we've done with SBH, search for "Song of Blades" at the blog in my sig.

I'll toss in my recommendation for the Ganesha stuff. It's totally customizable to however you want to run things.

Very adaptable. I spent last summer doing a simple campaign with my son using super market toys in Japan fighting each other. We used the rules with armies of SD Gundams before. We've gone the traditional route and used warmachine figures battling tyranids and necrons.

Our most recent battle was Deadzone's plague getting roughed up by some really shooty Skaven. It was a bloodbath- the Skaven really cleaned house that night!

That's all with the base Song of Blades and Heroes too, and just plugging models into the stat blocks they've already got made up. You can get all kinds of more complicated stuff, and they do make some more dedicated systems that more readily incorporate science fiction elements.

Thanks for the input so far. I've been reading up on the two systems and I have a few concerns that Ganesha's system would be simple for real customization or tactical depth.

What are you're experiences with force creation and tactics? Do different units and forces feel fairly different or is it all fairly similar?

How well would SoBaH fit modern or sci-fi combat? I know they have some other rulesets that add guns and the like. Are they necessary to really play sci-fi?

As for No Limits/No Quarter, is most of the the complexity in the game play or the force creation?

SBH is not a sci-fi ruleset. They have some variants such as Flying Lead (modern), Swatters (sci-fi) and Mutants and Death Ray Guns (Gamma World'ish), but I haven't yet found a SBH system that really does sci-fi they way I like.

It's a fantasy warband skirmish system and works well as such. Tactical depth is plenty in my opinion but really relies on using scenarios. Face-of-and-fight gets old quickly. The expansions to SBH add new ways to play, and special rules that add alot of options to make different units actually feel different.

For a customizable sci-fi ruleset there are much better options. Try Shocforce/Warengine (freerules from their yahoo group). It's a favorite of mine that lets you design your own uints.

Also, give up the idea of one rulset that will go from warband skirmish to mass-combat. It's been tried for decades and IMHO, no one has ever got it right. That's why there's lots of great systems and each is pretty well suited to a certain "scope" of combat.

If you want a fun sci-fi game that plays pretty easily I'd check out Warpath. It's not customizable, but there are plenty of army lists from which to draw form.

I think SoBH works fine for scifi- the abilities and stats are abstracted enough that you can adapt them to just about any type of figure- like I said, I've used random figures I picked up at the supermarket and out of vending machines last summer, assigned them stats, and spent a month in Japan running a campaign with my kids. It was SD PreCure, Toriko creatures, Gundams, Danboru Senki trading figures, Hello Kitty figures, and piles of plastic model SD dinosaurs (HoneHoneZaurus, which are awesome little kits by the way). If we could put together warbands with that stuff, t'll work with anything hobby related.

Flying Lead is a lot more range combat focused (as the name implies) and has some good rule points that can be pulled into SoBH, such as ammo types and vehicles.

Like Eilif said, I don't think it scales all that well into a huge mass battle system.

I'd say there's still quite a bit of customization, especially if you play with the warband generator and make up your own stat blocks, and even moreso if you start culling abilities from Ganesha's expansions and other games (since they're all pretty cross compatible).

I know my brother has a squad of Chaos Marines he looks to dump on the battlefield every now and then.

I was under the impression that Flying Lead and Swatters used a different ruleset, maybe just because the naming structure was different.

By "Mass Battle" I am thinking around 2 to 3 units a side with perhaps a vehicle, as opposed to a massive Warhammer 40k style combat with 50-100 figures on a side plus other elements. I've spoken with some of my group and they seem a little interested in trying No Limits, but I have not spoken to those less familiar with complex games yet, so that may push me in favor of SBH.

I will likely pick up SBH and have a read-through of them both, then present them to the group. It wouldn't hurt to have two rulesets.

Thanks a lot for your input.

Flying Lead and Swatters are their own rulesets, but they both operate from the same basic activation mechanic of SBH. They are quite different though. Flying Lead adds a whole ranged combat system that SBH doesn't have. IMHO, it bogs down the SBH system which is wonderfully smooth, but it does have alot of fans who like it.

Just so you know, the term "Mass Battle" is usually reserved for wargames that are larger than a couple platoons per side. Think like 80+ figures per side plus support units. 2-3 units per side plus a vehicle is basically "Platoon" level.

You're still not likely to find a ruleset that handles platoons with squad mechanics as well as warband skirmishes without squad mechanics. The two types of play have such different requirement. As you suggest, 2 rulesets is a very good idea. You can always use the same figs in both.

At my club all of us play Song of Blades and Heroes and those of us who have enough figures will sometimes play Kings of War when we want a big battle.

Happy to help and I hope you and your friend's find rules that you all enjoy.

Thanks, I've read up a bit on Flying Lead and I thin I'll give that a shot to get my group into wargaming more. If they like that we can use SBH for fantasy.

Once they more into it and I have a better understanding of the rules I will lead them into No Limits/No Quarter and see how they like the added complexity.

I was wondering though, I know that SBH has a campaign system but I was wondering what books I would need to play a full campaign with Flying Lead. Is there info already included or would I need to pick up Mutants and Death Ray Guns or another book?

 Slayer Dragonwing wrote:
Thanks, I've read up a bit on Flying Lead and I thin I'll give that a shot to get my group into wargaming more. If they like that we can use SBH for fantasy.

Once they more into it and I have a better understanding of the rules I will lead them into No Limits/No Quarter and see how they like the added complexity.

I was wondering though, I know that SBH has a campaign system but I was wondering what books I would need to play a full campaign with Flying Lead. Is there info already included or would I need to pick up Mutants and Death Ray Guns or another book?

Flying Lead doesn't really have campaign rules. A few vague suggestions are made, but the only campaign system made for Flying lead is in the supplement "Hearts and Minds" which has campaign rules, advancements, scenarios, etc. It's based on modern Afganistan, but I assume it could be adapted to other settings.
http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?products_id=71

SBH has a basic (but quite functional) campaign system. For a more full (and lots of fun) campaign system, you would want to pick up "Song of Deeds and Glory".

I don't want to hit this point too hard, but I think that SBH is a much better system to start with than FL as it plays faster and has less modifiers and steps. If they're set on doing modern-era than you could try Flying lead.

If you're looking for a dead simple warband skirmish sci-fi system, then it's worth checking out "In The Emperor's Name" which is really easy to play, has a nice campaign system and pre-built warband lists. I prefer it to Flying Lead, but YMMV. Also, it's free.
http://iten-game.org/
The current "3rd edition" hasn't quite worked out some of the weapons stats kinks or developed a new force list, so I recommend the second edition available here:
http://thegamesshed.wordpress.com/2011/07/02/in-the-emperors-name/

Speaking of Song of Blades and Heroes, anyone tried this yet?

Song of Shadows and Dust: http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?products_id=240

Basically SBH but for social breakdown in first century BC. Sounds like a rarely touched on time!