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Hi!

I'm trying to make up a really fun list for Eldar, based on multiple different tactics. I'm trying to fit in both mobility, long range, and ponderous threats, and while I don't expect it to be competetive, I don't want to be completely crushed by other gamers either.

The people I play with mostly either play Space Wolves (mix of tanks/foot, shoot/assault, a Land Raider), Chaos Space Marines (no heldrakes! We don't use flyers a lot here), Orks (Battlewagon and perhaps a truck, loads of boyz and nobz on foot).

My list is as following:

HQ:
Farseer on Jetbike
Mantle, Spirit Stone, Runes of Witnessing, Singing Spear (not sure about the Spirit Stone as I'm not yet decided on what discipline, advice on this?)
Avatar
Fast Shot, Marksman's Eye (to get rid of these really annoying Power Fists/Klaws etc before they strike back)
/410pts

Troops:
3 units of 5 Jetbikes (currently running them barebones, considering a Shuriken Cannon if it's worth the points? Using them for a slight finish/harassment power and objective grabbing)
10 Guardians, EML (long pop shots, EML for versitality)
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch with Power Weapon/Shimmershield (for a bit more footslogging shooters, soaking some shots from more important targets)
/535pts

Elites:
5 Scorpions, Exarch with Claw (all in a Wave Serpent with Scatter Laser, Shuricannon and Holofields. Basically here for infiltrating/outflanking the serpent, Exarch basically filling out some points, might switch him for cannons on the Jetbike units. Opinions?)
/270pts

Fast Attack:
3 Vypers with Holofields, EML's and Shuricannons (I know, EML's are a bit more expensive, but I find them very useful here. Safe range until rushing in for finishing with Shuricannons, and posing a threat to just about any target)
/225pts

Heavy Support
Lone War Walker with Dual Scatter (basically a bit more shooting power)
2 Wraithlords with 2 Bright Lances each (marching up together with Avatar and DA, acting Anti-Tank and fire-soakers. Perhaps not very pointeffective, but I love them nonetheless; they do what I expect them to do beautifully)
/410pts

/1830pts

Now, as said, I'm considering some changes, such as dropping the Scorion Exarch to getsome Shuricannons on the Jetbikes. Also considering dropping the random War Walker and the Scorpion Exarch to fit in a Nightspinner.

Any advice (except suggestions on spamming serpents etc) is greatly appreciated!

PS:
Models availible:
Avatar
Farseer on Jetbike
about 17 Dire avengers, 2 Exarchs (can rebuild those to anything)
12 Guardians with Heavy Weapon Platform
15 Jetbikes
5 Scorpions + Exarch
5 Fire Dragons + Exarch
5 Swooping Hawks + Exarch
A single Spider Exarch (... Yeah, I know )
A single Wraithguard (bought most of this from a friend who never bought an entire squad of these nor Spiders)
4 Wraithlords
2 Nightspinners/Fire Prisms
1 War Walker
3 Vypers
4 Wave Serpents

Might have forgotten something, but I think that's about it!

If your going for a mantleseer, don't take the spirit stone. Things that ignore cover or armor will absolutely ruin your day without that 4++. The stone has uses, but only if your going for a 2 cost power. This usually means telepathy, but fortune and (sometimes) eldritch storm from runes of fate can be useful. Some games you won't hit any 2 cost power(you will always hit a 2 cost if you roll 3 times in fate, but most of the powers suck sans fortune, doom and sometimes storm). Runes of witnessing is OK, but certainly not required. For your best all purpose seer, always roll once on runes of fate. Keep doom or fortune(maybe storm if situation justifies) and take guide if you hit anything else. Once you take guide, go to divination. Forwarning, misfortune, and maybe precognition are good here, once you get stuck with prescience go to telepathy. Basically everything in telepathy is good, it just depends on what you need. If you want, you can go to telepathy before divination.

Fast shot is required for the avatar, but marksman's eye is too expensive and won't accomplish the job you want. Most force weapons, power fists etc are on characters who can look out sir! the hit, or are in a unit like terminators where everybody has them. Since they are on characters, better to take disarming strike. If you find yourself agaisnt them, the odds are in your favor to disarm your opponent. Most enemy characters will die to the avatar in solo combat, but it helps if your up against something nasty like a wolf lord or any form of libby/sorcerer.

For 3 man bike teams, cannons are really a matter of taste. I take them to fill points, but it is rare my bikes even shoot. Maybe 1 out of 5 games I actually use my 3 man bikes to shoot, so it really depends. The cannon is fun if you can dakka rear armor or finish off a small squad, but I assume your hiding in reserves, so expect those points to sit around doing nothing for a while. Its really your call. If you go with a 6+squad, always take 2 cannons and be ready to shoot them.

I am generally not a fan of the EML on guardians(or anywhere), but if you really want the range, I can see the arguement. Orks are usually mobbed for fearless and marines have decent leadership, but when you pin a unit it can be very effective. I personally like lances or scatter lasers on guardians, but the shorter range can be an issue. Just make sure to kite max range and stay out of range of return fire.

Avengers are fine on foot, probably don't need the shimmershield since your not expecting drakes, but YMMV.

Serpent is fine. Taking scorpions just to infiltriate/outflank with a lone tank is risky(it will draw AT fire and could be assaulted). The exarch is dead lethal, but if you just want the outflank/infiltriate, again wasted points. It means turn 4 minimum before you could see assault. I would keep the serpent back and load it with guardians/avengers, or fire dragons for AT.

If your going to use the EML's on the vypers, again range is the name of the game. Imperium heavy fire usually comes in 4' range, meaning missiles can hit you back, as well as auto/lascannons. However, the imperium carries these on foot, or on slow heavy tanks. Move 12" every turn to stay out of range, or if you get in range, make sure you kill that predator, those long fangs, lootas, etc. Since your playing the range game, drop the shuricannon. Vypers should kite distance and pick off easy targets. If you find yourself close enough to fire the cannon, bolters can rapid fire you down. The catapults are fine for last ditch efforts. Holo fields are also expensive on such a fragile model. If you dropped them, you could get another vyper. Best defense is not being hit, and with speed/mobility, should be doable.

The lone walker puts out high amounts of dakka, but is an easy target. Saturates more Av10 with the vypers, but without buddies it will probably die. One thing you could do is take a scatter/shuricannon and outflank, showing up and popping rear armor, or messing up a backfield squad. A bit cheaper, and gaurenteed to get a good volley off. Scatter/starcannon is also good if you want the Ap2. Dropping the walker for a nightspinner or prism would be another solid choice.

Wraithlords and the Avatar provide a nice MC saturation, and very agressive threat. Without tanks they will draw AT fire. Use lances on the advance, then flame anything that gets close. I always take swords with extra points, just in case they get stuck in CC.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
If your going for a mantleseer, don't take the spirit stone. Things that ignore cover or armor will absolutely ruin your day without that 4++. The stone has uses, but only if your going for a 2 cost power. This usually means telepathy, but fortune and (sometimes) eldritch storm from runes of fate can be useful. Some games you won't hit any 2 cost power(you will always hit a 2 cost if you roll 3 times in fate, but most of the powers suck sans fortune, doom and sometimes storm). Runes of witnessing is OK, but certainly not required. For your best all purpose seer, always roll once on runes of fate. Keep doom or fortune(maybe storm if situation justifies) and take guide if you hit anything else. Once you take guide, go to divination. Forwarning, misfortune, and maybe precognition are good here, once you get stuck with prescience go to telepathy. Basically everything in telepathy is good, it just depends on what you need. If you want, you can go to telepathy before divination.

Fast shot is required for the avatar, but marksman's eye is too expensive and won't accomplish the job you want. Most force weapons, power fists etc are on characters who can look out sir! the hit, or are in a unit like terminators where everybody has them. Since they are on characters, better to take disarming strike. If you find yourself agaisnt them, the odds are in your favor to disarm your opponent. Most enemy characters will die to the avatar in solo combat, but it helps if your up against something nasty like a wolf lord or any form of libby/sorcerer.

For 3 man bike teams, cannons are really a matter of taste. I take them to fill points, but it is rare my bikes even shoot. Maybe 1 out of 5 games I actually use my 3 man bikes to shoot, so it really depends. The cannon is fun if you can dakka rear armor or finish off a small squad, but I assume your hiding in reserves, so expect those points to sit around doing nothing for a while. Its really your call. If you go with a 6+squad, always take 2 cannons and be ready to shoot them.

I am generally not a fan of the EML on guardians(or anywhere), but if you really want the range, I can see the arguement. Orks are usually mobbed for fearless and marines have decent leadership, but when you pin a unit it can be very effective. I personally like lances or scatter lasers on guardians, but the shorter range can be an issue. Just make sure to kite max range and stay out of range of return fire.

Avengers are fine on foot, probably don't need the shimmershield since your not expecting drakes, but YMMV.

Serpent is fine. Taking scorpions just to infiltriate/outflank with a lone tank is risky(it will draw AT fire and could be assaulted). The exarch is dead lethal, but if you just want the outflank/infiltriate, again wasted points. It means turn 4 minimum before you could see assault. I would keep the serpent back and load it with guardians/avengers, or fire dragons for AT.

If your going to use the EML's on the vypers, again range is the name of the game. Imperium heavy fire usually comes in 4' range, meaning missiles can hit you back, as well as auto/lascannons. However, the imperium carries these on foot, or on slow heavy tanks. Move 12" every turn to stay out of range, or if you get in range, make sure you kill that predator, those long fangs, lootas, etc. Since your playing the range game, drop the shuricannon. Vypers should kite distance and pick off easy targets. If you find yourself close enough to fire the cannon, bolters can rapid fire you down. The catapults are fine for last ditch efforts. Holo fields are also expensive on such a fragile model. If you dropped them, you could get another vyper. Best defense is not being hit, and with speed/mobility, should be doable.

The lone walker puts out high amounts of dakka, but is an easy target. Saturates more Av10 with the vypers, but without buddies it will probably die. One thing you could do is take a scatter/shuricannon and outflank, showing up and popping rear armor, or messing up a backfield squad. A bit cheaper, and gaurenteed to get a good volley off. Scatter/starcannon is also good if you want the Ap2. Dropping the walker for a nightspinner or prism would be another solid choice.

Wraithlords and the Avatar provide a nice MC saturation, and very agressive threat. Without tanks they will draw AT fire. Use lances on the advance, then flame anything that gets close. I always take swords with extra points, just in case they get stuck in CC.

Thank You for the reply! Let's see what's to be done:

I see you point on the Spirit Stone; and will drop it. Runes of witnessing I feel are useful, however, as they can let me reroll that one gamechanging power (if there will be one ). Thanks alot for the Psychich Power tip to, will likely turn out useful!

For the Avatar, I do see your point, though I find that Marksman's Eye is still rather useful. Disarming Strike won't be required in just about any case; however, seing a powerfist or something similar carried by a non-Character model is not that rare around here, and could save a few wound's. Besides, I have the spare points (at least for now, will drop if I need to).

For the bikes units, I will likely keep them in reserves, but once they come on, I really want to find a bit more use than hiding. I would think that I could use Cannons for harassment, and when needed, I can close the gap and burst with Catapults. Switching the Scorpion Exarch for 3 Cannons!

For EML's, I agree that they are not the best; but the range is really the key. At that range I can avoid most anti-infantry weapons with ease. On the Vypers though, I'm not sure yet. I'm considering a more agressive loadout (dual Shuricannon, Scatter/Shuricannon, Starcannon/Shuricannon) as I prefer playing them that way. Holofields I find very useful (sooner or later I can't outmanover some sort of gun; and all guns can do something to Vypers )Unfortunately, I only have 3 so far, so no additions there (yet) . But I do think I'll change the EML's to Scatterlasers (generally prefer that loadout).

Shimmershield on Dire Avengers is just something I do . The model looks cool, and it normally saves me a couple Avengers every game (not very many, though).

I see your point in the lone walker as well as the lone serpent. By dropping the Scorpion Exarch, the Spirit Stone adding 3 Shuricannons, dropping the WW, and changing the Vypers' EML's to SL's, I save 120pts (not counting the 20pts that I hadn't filled out yet). That means 130pts remains. for that, I can fit in a Nightspinner with Holofields. Will post the changed list ASAP,

Thank you again for the great reply, Doc!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
New list based on Serling advice!

HQ:
Farseer on Jetbike
Mantle, Runes of Witnessing, Singing Spear
Avatar w/ Fast Shot, Marksman's Eye
/395pts

Troops:
3 units of 5 Jetbikes, 1 Cannon each
10 Guardians, EML
10 Dire Avengers, Exarch with Power Weapon/Shimmershield
/565pts

Elites:
5 Scorpions, all in a Wave Serpent with Scatter Laser, Shuricannon and Holofields
/230pts

Fast Attack:
3 Vypers with Holofields, SL's and Shuricannons
/210pts

Heavy Support
Nightspinner, Holofields
2 Wraithlords with 2 Bright Lances each
/470pts

/1850pts

Any new advice on the new list?

The second list looks a lot better. The big thing that sticks out is the jetbikes. Always take them in multiples of 3 to unlock the second cannon. Make 2 squads of six and 1 squad of 3. Then get a second cannon in each six man team.

By hidden power fists or other stuff, I assume your talking about grey hunters. Power fists, mark of the wulfen, and then terminators of any army can be trouble. Generally better to avoid the unit or shoot em to the point the Avatar can sweep before they strike back. Marksman's eye and runes of witnessing would buy the cannons and change(swords for the lords, crushing blow on the avatar, etc). Not that the runes are bad either, but cannons are better worth it.

I am much more a fan of the scatter/shuri or dual shuri vyper build. Cheap, fast, and deadly. Try playing around with 3 seperate units instead of a single squad.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
The second list looks a lot better. The big thing that sticks out is the jetbikes. Always take them in multiples of 3 to unlock the second cannon. Make 2 squads of six and 1 squad of 3. Then get a second cannon in each six man team.

By hidden power fists or other stuff, I assume your talking about grey hunters. Power fists, mark of the wulfen, and then terminators of any army can be trouble. Generally better to avoid the unit or shoot em to the point the Avatar can sweep before they strike back. Marksman's eye and runes of witnessing would buy the cannons and change(swords for the lords, crushing blow on the avatar, etc). Not that the runes are bad either, but cannons are better worth it.

I am much more a fan of the scatter/shuri or dual shuri vyper build. Cheap, fast, and deadly. Try playing around with 3 seperate units instead of a single squad.

I agree with everything said here.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
The second list looks a lot better. The big thing that sticks out is the jetbikes. Always take them in multiples of 3 to unlock the second cannon. Make 2 squads of six and 1 squad of 3. Then get a second cannon in each six man team.

By hidden power fists or other stuff, I assume your talking about grey hunters. Power fists, mark of the wulfen, and then terminators of any army can be trouble. Generally better to avoid the unit or shoot em to the point the Avatar can sweep before they strike back. Marksman's eye and runes of witnessing would buy the cannons and change(swords for the lords, crushing blow on the avatar, etc). Not that the runes are bad either, but cannons are better worth it.

I am much more a fan of the scatter/shuri or dual shuri vyper build. Cheap, fast, and deadly. Try playing around with 3 seperate units instead of a single squad.

Thank Your again for the reply!

Again, I see just what you mean all around. Dropping both Marksman's Eye and Runes of Witnessing leaves me with 30points; enough to change the Jetbikes to whatyou said; 2 units of 6 with 2 Cannons and 1 unit with a single. That leaves 10, just enough for 2 Swords. I won't repost the list (too much unnecessary space), but count these changes in nevertheless!

The Vyper idea seems like a lot of fun! So splitting them in 3 units of 1 instead of 1 unit of 3 gives me a lot better target saturation; and the only time this would be bad would be in Purge the Alien. I think I'll apply this change too. Thank You!

So:
- Runes and Marksman's Eye dropped
- 3x5 Jetbikes with 1 Cannon each changed to 2x6 with 2 Cannons and 1x3 with a single
- 1x3 Vypers split to 3x1

Any other ideas, or is this solid as it is?