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I am looking for a rule reference that says that a MC can't get a cover save from intervening models unless these intervening models are of course MC or vehicles.
I am not sure if it's an old rule that dates back to 5th. ed. or not. I have seen it somewhere and that's why I am confused.
In the current rule all I have found is that at least 25% must be hidden to get a cover

So for exemple a hive tyrant would not get cover save from a line of termagants but would get one from some warriors.. right?

You won't find that rule.
And I'm pretty sure warriors aren't Monstrous Creatures.

No such rule exists.

Lord_Tyrant wrote:
I am looking for a rule reference that says that a MC can't get a cover save from intervening models unless these intervening models are of course MC or vehicles.
I am not sure if it's an old rule that dates back to 5th. ed. or not. I have seen it somewhere and that's why I am confused.
In the current rule all I have found is that at least 25% must be hidden to get a cover

So for exemple a hive tyrant would not get cover save from a line of termagants but would get one from some warriors.. right?

There is no rule for a MC not getting an intervening model cover save of 5+.

You'll also notice in the Intervening Models rule one line that states "if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it." .. (emphasis mine)

if the shot is going through a gap in the models of the intervening unit and you can see the target from the shooters LoS, the target has cover from intervening models, 25% obscured or not it seems.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So it depends on what is doing the shooting and from where.

It is an 5th edition rule, it doesn't exist in 6th.

 Tyran wrote:
It is an 5th edition rule, it doesn't exist in 6th.

It wasnt even a 5th edition rule. The rule in 5th was the same, except you needed 50% coverage not 25%, and they could not get cover just for being "in" area terrain.

Rorschach9 wrote:


if the shot is going through a gap in the models of the intervening unit and you can see the target from the shooters LoS, the target has cover from intervening models, 25% obscured or not it seems.
.

The target model still needs to be 25% obscured; the spaces between intervening models also counts for obscurement.


If you are shooting at a trygon with gaunts in front, no cover save regardless of gaps or not.
If you are shooting at a Hive Tyrant, with a brood of fexes in front, you do get a cover save; even if you can see the entire HT through the gap between the fexes.


The rule says intervening models provide a cover save "the same way" as does terrain. The way terrain provides a cover save is when the target is obscured by 25%; thus intervening models to it the "same way".

coredump wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:


if the shot is going through a gap in the models of the intervening unit and you can see the target from the shooters LoS, the target has cover from intervening models, 25% obscured or not it seems.
.

The target model still needs to be 25% obscured; the spaces between intervening models also counts for obscurement.


If you are shooting at a trygon with gaunts in front, no cover save regardless of gaps or not.
If you are shooting at a Hive Tyrant, with a brood of fexes in front, you do get a cover save; even if you can see the entire HT through the gap between the fexes.


The rule says intervening models provide a cover save "the same way" as does terrain. The way terrain provides a cover save is when the target is obscured by 25%; thus intervening models to it the "same way".

In that sentence "the same way" is a result, not a requirement. 25% does not apply as the rules are written.

coredump wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:


if the shot is going through a gap in the models of the intervening unit and you can see the target from the shooters LoS, the target has cover from intervening models, 25% obscured or not it seems.
.

The target model still needs to be 25% obscured; the spaces between intervening models also counts for obscurement.


If you are shooting at a trygon with gaunts in front, no cover save regardless of gaps or not.
If you are shooting at a Hive Tyrant, with a brood of fexes in front, you do get a cover save; even if you can see the entire HT through the gap between the fexes.


The rule says intervening models provide a cover save "the same way" as does terrain. The way terrain provides a cover save is when the target is obscured by 25%; thus intervening models to it the "same way".

No the intervening rule state:

BRB wrote:if a unit is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit ... it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it were behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unite, that target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather then through it.

Emphasis Mine.

You just need to be partially hidden not 25% obscured. The "in the same way as if it were behind terrain" just means you get the cover save.

Those are 2 separate sentences though, namely:
1) if a unit is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit ... it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it were behind terrain.
and
2) Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unite, that target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather then through it.

The condition to be partially hidden only applies to the first. The similarity applies to the receiving of a cover save.

 Shandara wrote:
Those are 2 separate sentences though, namely:
1) if a unit is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit ... it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it were behind terrain.
and
2) Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unite, that target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather then through it.

The condition to be partially hidden only applies to the first. The similarity applies to the receiving of a cover save.

Correct. I was addressing that nowhere in the interveneing unit rules are you required to be 25% obscured.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
It is an 5th edition rule, it doesn't exist in 6th.

It wasnt even a 5th edition rule. The rule in 5th was the same, except you needed 50% coverage not 25%, and they could not get cover just for being "in" area terrain.

In 5th edition MCs didn't get cover save from intervening models, their cover worked under the same rules as vehicles. And yeah then you needed 50% not 25%.

coredump wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:


if the shot is going through a gap in the models of the intervening unit and you can see the target from the shooters LoS, the target has cover from intervening models, 25% obscured or not it seems.
.

The target model still needs to be 25% obscured; the spaces between intervening models also counts for obscurement.

If you are shooting at a trygon with gaunts in front, no cover save regardless of gaps or not.
If you are shooting at a Hive Tyrant, with a brood of fexes in front, you do get a cover save; even if you can see the entire HT through the gap between the fexes.

The rule says intervening models provide a cover save "the same way" as does terrain. The way terrain provides a cover save is when the target is obscured by 25%; thus intervening models to it the "same way".

You must have missed this .. I'll requote it for you (specifically the portion I have underlined);

if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it.

alright, that says it all.
Thanx all

It specifically says *In the same way as if it was behind terrain*. If it does not require 25% obscurement, that is *not* in the same way.

25% *is* partially obscured.

You can't simply ignore the requirement that it is handled *in the same way*. You must follow all of the rules... not just parts of them.

What is the "way" that terrain provides a cover save?
By being 25% obscured.

Intervening models work "the same way". It is pretty plain.


It does go on to explain that the 'gaps' also count for obscurement, so if the gaps between models cover 25%, that is also fine.

When talking about terrain, it *also* talks about being 'partially hidden"... yet it still takes 25% obscurement to get a cover save. That is *the way* terrain provides cover.


Your assertion:
Behind infantry, 10% obscured, gets a cover save
Behind wall, 10% obscured, does not get a cover save

How is that "the same way as if it was behind terrain"?? You are not treating them the same, you are treating them very differently.

if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather than through it.

Yes, but look at the definiton of 'in cover' p.18
"Often,you'll find enemy models are partially hidden or obscured by terrain,also known as being in cover"
But being 'in cover' is *not* enough to get a cover save. Anytime terrain is obscuring you 1%, you are 'in cover'. But the rules continue:
"If,when you come to allocate a Wound,the target model's body (as defined on page 8) is at least 25% obscured from the point
of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save"

You need to be "in cover" *and* obscured 25%.

Any part of the target model seen 'through the gaps between intervening models' counts as being "in cover". If 25% of the model is thus obscured, then it also gets a cover save.