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The Death Company pay 15pts for a jump pack. Now there is some (debatably badly thought out) logic behind this; Death Company benefit greatly from the charge, +2a +1s and if accompanied by a chaplain, rerolls to hit and wound. Therefore a jp helps toward being able to increase the chances of a charge coming off.
Sanguinary guard get +1a on the charge, if they have forked out 75pts for a sanguinary priest they also get +1s. They do not desperately need the charge like the death company do, therefore should not be paying addict prices for that desperation.
A bike for a 1w model in C:SM costs 7pts. This gives +1t, a movement of 12" and HoW. A jp gives the same but without the +1t, it does however allow you to ignore high walls and difficult terrain. +1t is very big, arguably bigger than being able to allow you to ignore difficult terrain. Therefore a jp should cost 5 or 6pts. The Sanguinary Guard have a 2+ save though. +1t or +1 save, both have benefits over the other, but bear in mind that the sanguinary guard have already paid for their 2+ whilst the +1t comes in the cost of the bikes. Also sanguinary guard tend to attract the type of firepower which ignores their saves anyway (this last part is anecdotal, I know). Therefore at a push an extra point should be paid due to it being a 2+ instead of a 3+ with access to a jp (remember they have already paid for the 2+ in their base cost, more of which next).
A C:SM honour guard costs 25pts, they have the same stats as a sanguinary guard with two differences, the C:SM HG get an extra attack for 2 ccws whereas the SG get one reroll to hit instead. Mathematically it is better to have +1 attack than 1 reroll to hit, but lets call that evens. The second difference is the SG have an angelus boltgun compared to the bolt pistol of the HG. Considering the extra 6" of range, on basic small arms weapons on models who want to be in combat will only make difference in 1 phase of the game, if that, then the points for this should be one point or two max (basing this on the cost of a storm bolter). So a sanguinary guard without a jp should be 26pts to have external codex balance. With a jump pack added this should bring a sanguinary guard model to 32 or 33 pts each.
So if making external codex balance, SG should cost 165pts max before any upgrades.
Lets compare this with terminators who are already considered over-costed themselves.. 4 Sanguinary Guard with powerfists (to make them comparable) will cost 205pts. So basic terminators; They lack a 12" move but have a 5++, they have a greater range with greater firepower also. Cost 5 pts left. In this case I would probably choose Sang Guard.
Lets compare them with a unit more in line with their role: Terminator assault squad. 5 Sanguinary Guard with powerfists (to make them comparable) will cost 215pts. So terminator assault squads; do not have a 12" move, have a 3++, their attacks are concussive, they do not have the small arms bolter firepower of the sang guard, they cost 10pts more. A harder pick here.
Now I've just compared the new cost of SG (with a dramatic decrease) with units that are already very overpriced (for competitive play), and I would say they only just came out on top. This demonstrates that the SG are screaming out for a BIG points decrease.
Should it be 165pts for 5 SG? Less or more? Should it stay the same? Or should a SG cost almost as much as 2 T5 5+jink save bikers?

A couple things:
1) The BA Codex is old, therefore the pricing of units and upgrades is off, especially when you're comparing them to the new SM Codex.
2) The BA Codex was written for 5th ed, at which point 15pts for jump packs was even more ridiculous for Death Company. 15pts for Jump Packs was basically an arbitrary number back then, rather than having a major purpose.

Cheers for the reply. I know all that, hence why I was using a 6th ed codex to compare, rather than comparing internally with the BA vanguard vets, however, I was wondering if 160-165pts would be acceptable to people?

Maybe. I haven't used DC in so long that I haven't thought about it.

Honour guard are 25pts or 250 for 10. SG are honour guard with Jump movement and DS and gun options and more CCW options. They should cost at least 32 points per model.

 Lobukia wrote:
Honour guard are 25pts or 250 for 10. SG are honour guard with Jump movement and DS and gun options and more CCW options. They should cost at least 32 points per model.

Then they are condemned to obscurity, since 32 pts for a T4 W1 2+ model is too high in 6th edition.

Martel732 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Honour guard are 25pts or 250 for 10. SG are honour guard with Jump movement and DS and gun options and more CCW options. They should cost at least 32 points per model.

Then they are condemned to obscurity, since 32 pts for a T4 W1 2+ model is too high in 6th edition.

There's not much room here. 30points is just silly. At some level they have to pay for all the toys they carry: Jump packs, artificer armour, glaives, AP bolters, etc. Maybe lower upgrade costs? It's just part of 40k: you want toys, you pay for them. I also think people get too freaked out about AP 2 stuff. It's there, buts it's not everywhere all the time. Occasionally even awesome 2+ save units require tactics to work. It can't all be easy buttons.

165pts is 33pts per model... thats only 7pys less per model.
I'm not talking about an 'easy button', Im talking about pricing a unit in sync with other dexes. Making it a fair points cost, not an underpriced one. I've included all their equipment in that points cost with reasoned argument.

"It's just part of 40k: you want toys, you pay for them."

Toys that don't do anything shouldn't cost anything, because you don't gain anything by having them. Plus, 2+ saves aren't awesome anymore. Especially on T4 model.

Poly Ranger wrote:
165pts is 33pts per model... thats only 7pys less per model.
I'm not talking about an 'easy button', Im talking about pricing a unit in sync with other dexes. Making it a fair points cost, not an underpriced one. I've included all their equipment in that points cost with reasoned argument.

I agreed. Said I thought 32 was good. 160 points before upgrades.

Looking at it again, I guess it's technically *fair*, but still a unit I'd never use. Too few wounds/pt.

If you start with the cost of SM Honor Guard, 25 pts. You trade out their blades for a basic power weapon like Honor Guard, lose the bolter, add in the cost of a jump pack at +3 pts each. Not a bad unit at 28 pts a model.

 Lobukia wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
165pts is 33pts per model... thats only 7pys less per model.
I'm not talking about an 'easy button', Im talking about pricing a unit in sync with other dexes. Making it a fair points cost, not an underpriced one. I've included all their equipment in that points cost with reasoned argument.

I agreed. Said I thought 32 was good. 160 points before upgrades.

Ahhh fair enough, I apologise, I totally misread it.

I would say 32 pts a man would be fair for a basic SG with jump pack. Terminator points for a unit without an invuln save is crazy, especially as they have to contend with tau and eldar firepower before they can assault.

 Corvaxes wrote:
If you start with the cost of SM Honor Guard, 25 pts. You trade out their blades for a basic power weapon like Honor Guard, lose the bolter, add in the cost of a jump pack at +3 pts each. Not a bad unit at 28 pts a model.

Honour Guard have "normal" Power Weapons, Sanguinary Guard have Glaive Encarmines, which is either sword or axe (and master-crafted). Further, Sanguinary Guard have Angelus Boltguns and options for Melta and Power Fists. They lose out on pistols for extra attacks though, and having each model have to roll individually for Master Crafted stuff is annoying as gak.

Upgrading sanguinary guard is super painful. They are dubious to begin with.

I agree wholeheartedly there although I would have used a stronger and less diplomatic word than 'dubious' :-p!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Corvaxes wrote:
If you start with the cost of SM Honor Guard, 25 pts. You trade out their blades for a basic power weapon like Honor Guard, lose the bolter, add in the cost of a jump pack at +3 pts each. Not a bad unit at 28 pts a model.

Honour Guard have "normal" Power Weapons, Sanguinary Guard have Glaive Encarmines, which is either sword or axe (and master-crafted). Further, Sanguinary Guard have Angelus Boltguns and options for Melta and Power Fists. They lose out on pistols for extra attacks though, and having each model have to roll individually for Master Crafted stuff is annoying as gak.

I'm aware of the Glaives, their "worth" is also what makes the squad difficult to justify putting on the table. Swap them out for basic power weapons, like SM Honor Guard, they then become much easier to put on the table. Jump packers with a 2+ save and power weapons, even with inferno pistol and power fist upgrades (if you care to) is a nice unit for 28 pts a model. Trying to have a beat stick unit rather than a nice unit Dante can be the beatstick for is what will drive the points so high that nobody will play them.

Tbf a power weapon is better than a glaive in all situations mathematically. +1 attack always trumps rerolling one to-hit. If we got to reroll all to-hits they would be a decent weapon.


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Plus with them having 2+ saves I really do think it should be 5pts for a jp not 3.