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This is to solve an argument: which of the two flyers is worse than the other. I don't want any excuses of "Heldrakes are the only good unit in Codex:CSM", just the unit itself. Which is the more OP vehicle?

I would say the Heldrake, because it has the 5+ invulnerable save, it has 360 degree fire arc, and can potentially engage two targets a turn (being able to hit vehicles on the side with str 7). It also negates the armor save of the most popular army.

Well both units serve entirely different roles so preform better in their respective fields. For AT the vendetta is better, but for infantry smashing the drake is better. Durability wise the drake is better since its a daemon and has IWND. Utility wise they are about equal since one has the ability to vector strike and the other has the ability to transport 10ish models; also, both have the ability to hover. I guess the drake is better overall but it also costs 40 points more than a vendetta for the added durability so they are probably about the same with the vendetta slightly ahead due to points costs.

Helldrak all the way. The vendetta was powerful at one time but now.... meh barely worth the points.

Helldrake is more game changing, but Vendetta may be more undercosted.

The Vendetta is the "Better" unit, in my opinion, based on how it fits into an army. Vendetta can provide Anti-Air / Anti-Tank, and provides a fast moving transport that the IG otherwise lack. IG have other options for dealing with entrenched MEQ, such as Banewolves, Collossus, and Allied Psykers providing Divination bonuses to their Tanks.

Chaos, on the other hand, doesn't have efficient means of tackling other Flyers, so if a Helldrake takes the Hades it loses a lot of punch. Since Chaos doesn't have much in the way of Cover-Ignoring weapons, they pretty much need to use the Helldrake in that way. It doesn't provide transportation, so Chaos is not able to quickly move troops around to score objectives.

Plus a 'Detta is notably cheaper points wise. Until the Guard get a new codex, the Vendetta is the superior / more broken model.

Definitely the Heldrake. It has a lot more issues than simply being undercosted

yes, Definitely the hellturkey. The detta just doesnt have survivability anymore with so many AA options and vector strike spam, they just arent worth the points anymore. Especially considering they are only good at one thing/popping vehicles), against a horde list, they are a detriment to you.
The turkey is much more survivable and can be customized for different uses (not to menton the vector strike, 360 fire arc), a steal for the points.

Heldrake. It's basically mandatory, whereas you can still make a Guard list work without vendettas.

I'd say the vendetta. It's so damn cheap.

Also, in my experience vendettas are more useful. They're a transport, and while they're less survivable than heldrakes, I find they do more damage.

My drakes rarely have a big impact on the actual outcomes of games like vendettas do, the best thing about drakes is that they intimidate opponents.

Remember the transport of the detta is next to useless as you can only deepstrike out of it if its zooming which more often than not results in a mishap or if your lucky, just landing in the wrong spot. if you hover to unload, you lose flying altogether. So your essentially paying for something youd be a fool to use. although, i have zoomed with a unit in till last turn and then went into hover over an obj and then unloaded. rarely works though. usually ya crash and burn killing both.

Heldrake, but the Vendetta is a VERY close second.

 EVIL INC wrote:
yes, Definitely the hellturkey. The detta just doesnt have survivability anymore with so many AA options and vector strike spam, they just arent worth the points anymore. Especially considering they are only good at one thing/popping vehicles), against a horde list, they are a detriment to you.
The turkey is much more survivable and can be customized for different uses (not to menton the vector strike, 360 fire arc), a steal for the points.

Vector Strikes are usually S7, so will only pen a Vendetta on a 6+. Further, three TLLC handle MCs (especially FMCs) very well. It's not like Guard don't have a plethora of anti-horde weaponry either. 130 points for 3 flying TLLCs on an AV12 chassi is still a steal, so I'll disagree that they're not worth it anymore.

 kronk wrote:
Heldrake, but the Vendetta is a VERY close second.

This.

 kronk wrote:
Heldrake, but the Vendetta is a VERY close second.

Yeah, this.

Both are far stronger, or cheaper, than they should be.

 kronk wrote:
Heldrake, but the Vendetta is a VERY close second.

This is the best answer.

I haven't heard about a build or army type to be bad , because of vendettas , but there are more then a few that helldrakes phased in to oblivion. So helldrakes are better.

Agree with Kronk. The Vendetta is a better value, but less game changing, as those TL LC can't erase scoring troops like the baleflamer. Plus, the 5++ demon save can be game changing, and at the very least sucks down even more AA fire.

Heldrake, without a doubt. Vendetta doesn`t come close in damage output.

 Illumini wrote:
Heldrake, without a doubt. Vendetta doesn`t come close in damage output.

Depends on the target. This statement isn't quite right.

Vendetta. Its is more all around useful if you play to its strengths and much more spammable. With a proper focus on AA you can tame the hellturkey. There isn't enough AA in the game to remove 6 or more vendettas.

Oh Ioften still take a vendetta. Hell, i got 3 of the models and converted a special one out of an ork dakkajet that looks cool and has great fluff in my army. Oasionally, it (or they) make their points back.
I'm talking in overall, the hellturkey is a much better bargain and has much more going for it.

Martel732 wrote:

 Illumini wrote:
Heldrake, without a doubt. Vendetta doesn`t come close in damage output.

Depends on the target. This statement isn't quite right.

I was thinking through a "general" match. The vendetta is better against some targets, but with vector strikes and the baleflamer, the drake will hurt two units per turn and the flamer is just so incredibly efficient vs its targets. The drake is also much tougher.

Heldrake, but the Vendetta is a VERY close second.

If you're talking one on one and in a vacuum then I agree with Kronk. IMO though, the real strength of the Vendetta isn't just that it's under-costed. It's that it's under-costed AND can be taken in squadrons. I'd rather take on three 'Drakes any day rather than stare down the barrel of 9 freaking Vendettas ....

And yes, I have, at my LGS had to face 9 Vendettas multiple times.

yeah only 9 vendettas costs a lot more then 3 helldrakes . 2-3 helldrakes can easily fit in to 1-1,5pts , I can't fit more then 4 vendettas in to a IG army without crippling it against many other armies.

Heldrake, because in just over a month the Vendetta is going to the big dusty shelf in the sky.

Helldrake. By turn ~3, most vehicles are already dead, crippled, or not a problem for your army. Vendettas do a nice job of cleaning up, but helldrakes remove whole units. Never having to jink is also pretty huge.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Heldrake, because in just over a month the Vendetta is going to the big dusty shelf in the sky.

Not so sure about this.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Heldrake, because in just over a month the Vendetta is going to the big dusty shelf in the sky.

That's putting a lot of faith in GW's ability to balance.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Heldrake, because in just over a month the Vendetta is going to the big dusty shelf in the sky.

That's putting a lot of faith in GW's ability to balance.

Or a lot of faith in their poor internal balancing which makes some units spend decades on the shelf. It is not balance if you have to shelf your vendettas.

From the amount of times my heldrake has been shot down before doing anything by a Vendetta, I'm going with the vendetta. It has a 100% kill rate against the thing.
The heldrake isn't as OP as everyone makes it out to be. I'd take bikes and spawn first