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Well looking at the games around my local store no one fields Kroot, is this just because they suck or are fire teams just better?

Also can the Carnivore squad be split up or if you took all 20 Kroot, 10 hounds and 3 Krootox riders would they have to sit together in a big lump shouting come play with me?

Same goes for the Vespid, I have never seen them bouncing around the table with their hit and run tactics, how comes they don't get used either?

Kroots with snipers are very good and offten seen in most good tau lists . They help to deal with grimore buffed units , and melee support characters like khorn heralds .


Vespids on the other hand are just bad.

As said above, Kroot with sniper rounds, because they are so cheap they give Tau a really easy answer for Monstrous Creatures. As for Melee Kroot, losing that extra attack andnow only being Str 3 makes them much less effective in close combat.

Kroot are good, I usually prefer fire warriors though just cause I think they look cooler but it never hurts to have a squad or 2 in your list.

I never bothered giving them shapers or ox though. Seems like to big of a point sink for me but 20x sniper rounds with some MLs has never hurt. They also have the outflank ability which is great for mid-late game objective contesting.

Makumba wrote:
Kroots with snipers are very good and offten seen in most good tau lists . They help to deal with grimore buffed units , and melee support characters like khorn heralds .


Vespids on the other hand are just bad.

Only in Tau land is jump infantry with a S5 AP3 gun bad...

Kroot are a great cheap troop choice that can fairly regularly outflank where you need them to be, a great troop choice if you need something to move up field in a Tau army.

Vespid are just fine as a unit, their biggest problem is they aren't as powerful as the rest of the Tau codex so people treat them like garbage, never mind the fact that if they were in another codex they would be considered decent.

Ah cool, thanks for the replies guys

Only in Tau land is jump infantry with a S5 AP3 gun bad...

lol! My thoughts exactly. They really aren't THAT bad. They just can't compete with a lot of the other units in their FOC slot. Other than that, my only issue with them is that they don't have JSJ. So once you spring them from cover to use that S5 AP3 gun, they're probably going to die the following turn.

For Kroot - Heck yeah they're good. I have found the key being large numbers of them. Few armies can bring a horde element like Kroot but then back it up with the kind of heavy and elite fire power the Tau can bring. It's a lot to deal with!

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

Only in Tau land is jump infantry with a S5 AP3 gun bad...

That's not true, Necron destroyers suck too.

I really want to like Vespid... but they are just such a "one use only" type of unit that I can't justify it. They would need to hunt some seriously big game to earn their points back, because you know you're getting only one chance (and most game that big has an invulnerable save). And for killing space marines we have much better tools we can use over and over.

That said, Kroot are definite winners. I always love to infiltrate 1-2 big blobs with sniper rounds. One use is pitting them about a foot in front of your deployment zone and spreading a line across the entire board, but you could also just bunch them up in the corner of the opponent's deployment zone and you've just given him another threat to deal with. The best part is that they're so dang cheap you can get 20 of them slaughtered and smile because the effort the opponent put in was basically wasted.

As a tyranid player I am starting to get really annoyed with my friend's Vespids. That AP 3 St 5 really makes them good at hurting my MCs. Yeah, they do die pretty easily if I concentrate some fire on them, but then they are also distracting me from killing other units.

I would like to give Vespid a serious try. But I just don't want to put the money into getting the FC kits to have a full unit without knowing if other people have success with them or not.

Kroot on the other hand, Makes a very nice back field distraction, and MC hunters.

Kroots are better than space marines. So, yeah, they're good.

Martel732 wrote:
Kroots are better than space marines. So, yeah, they're good.

Wait, what?

Martel732 wrote:
Kroots are better than space marines. So, yeah, they're good.

That seems like a bit of an exaggeration. They're useful but not strictly 'good'

Zothos wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Kroots are better than space marines. So, yeah, they're good.

Wait, what?

Sorry, space marine tactical squads. Not all possible space marines.

That seems like a bit of an exaggeration. They're useful but not strictly 'good'

Actually, yeah, they are pretty friggin good. Especially for the paltry points cost. Compare what you get in a squad of ten Kroot (without options or upgrades) to what you get in a squad of ten cultists (again no options/upgrades) and then look at the points cost. Not even a contest but look at how the Cultists are pointed. Had the Kroot not had their strength and attacks lowered by one you could almost make an argument for them being nearly (not quite but nearly) OP. They are that good imo. In terms of infantry on infantry they are one of the better choices in the game due to how economic they are while still being somewhat useful.

Wrong example . Kroot are good because of sniper rifles and cultists are good , because other csm troops cost too much and spaming cheap cultists allows chaos players to have more helldrakes , oblits etc.

vespid are bad , because there are other units who can do anti meq better while being more resilient and not costing an arm and a leg . The fact that someone of those units can become troops when taken as ally makes vespides even less needed.

To be fair, I think vespeds on the bees knees in kill team.

Fast, ap3 guns with stealth ruins, mtc and some other stuff makes them awesome for that.

Wrong example . Kroot are good because of sniper rifles and cultists are good , because other csm troops cost too much and spaming cheap cultists allows chaos players to have more helldrakes , oblits etc.

You really don't need sniper rifles to make Kroot good. They're pretty awesome without them (although they go to another level WITH them). It's a good comparison because Cultists serve the same roll in their army that Kroot serve in the Tau army. Clearly, the Kroot come out WAY ahead of the curve in that respect. There aren't too many "cheap" troop choices in the game right now that can hold a candle to Kroot.

Your breakdown really just focuses on the lack of internal balance within the CSM book which is a point aside from how Kroot (comparatively) function in the real world. lol Did I just use "real world" in reference to a game of 40k?

Only in Tau land is jump infantry with a S5 AP3 gun bad...


lol! My thoughts exactly. They really aren't THAT bad. They just can't compete with a lot of the other units in their FOC slot. Other than that, my only issue with them is that they don't have JSJ. So once you spring them from cover to use that S5 AP3 gun, they're probably going to die the following turn.

Vespid sucking has nothing to do with the power level of the new codex. Vespid have always sucked, and were among the worst unit in the old Tau codex as well as the new codex. This is not in spite of the S5 AP3 gun, but because of it. Vespid would be an excellent unit if they had a more general purpose gun.

AP3 guns sound good in theory, but I have never been impressed by AP3 guns in small arms format. Large AP3 guns like Battlecannons and Baelflamers are a different matter, but weapons like neutron blasters, hot shot lasgun, thousand son bolter and necron destroyer gauss blaster have never impressed me. The problem with these weapons is that they are both overspecialized and far too pricey.

In the case of the Tau codex, I can purchase st5 ap5 shots at a 3:1 ratio relative to neutron blaster shots and still have points left over. Now 3 ap5 = 1 ap3 shot against 3+ out in the open with no inv, and under any circumstances possessing the 3 ap5 shots are superior. By this logic, an ap3 shot needs to be price significantly less than 3 ap5 shots, but this never seems to be the case, and is actually priced more than 3 ap3 shots in the Tau codex. This isn't even getting into comparing ap3 guns to ap2 guns, which are often priced approximately the same. So until GW learns how to price AP3 guns reasonably, Vespid will continue to suck.

Kroot on the other hand are disgustingly good. Between infiltrate, move through cover, outflank with acute senses, sniper rounds and an incredibly lower price tag, the probably among the best troops choices in the game. For Tau they are an absolutely no brainer: I can either purchase the most overpriced transport in the game to ferry Firewarriors to an objective, or I can infiltrate/outflank Kroot onto the objective for free. I know which option I am picking.

I love my kroot and vespid, but sadly...they are not that great.

Kroot took a huge nerf in the last codex in their CC ability, and are lot trickery to use because of it.

I used to use them for late game outflanking and objective grabds, or counter charges. Now they mainly seem useful for snipers...not a bad role, but not that great.

Of course, their terrible save does not help.

Vespid are incredibly situational....if you can get dense LOS blocking terrain, they can be good....if not, they die very easily.

I run a couple of squads of them in every apoc game, just because....well, they are fun, and I have the points to spare.

Everyone focuses on "the gun is ap3!!". Its also short ranged, single shot on a poor BS model. They MUST have markerlight support to be even remotely useful for anything other than picking off a single model.

Also, with their incredibly bad leadership, a strain leader is almost a must....and he is very expensive to an alrady over costed model.

Will I still use vespid? Sure....but only in kill team or apoc.

Give them a spin, see how you like them.

davethepak wrote:
I love my kroot and vespid, but sadly...they are not that great.

Kroot took a huge nerf in the last codex in their CC ability, and are lot trickery to use because of it.

I used to use them for late game outflanking and objective grabds, or counter charges. Now they mainly seem useful for snipers...not a bad role, but not that great.

Of course, their terrible save does not help.

Vespid are incredibly situational....if you can get dense LOS blocking terrain, they can be good....if not, they die very easily.

I run a couple of squads of them in every apoc game, just because....well, they are fun, and I have the points to spare.

Everyone focuses on "the gun is ap3!!". Its also short ranged, single shot on a poor BS model. They MUST have markerlight support to be even remotely useful for anything other than picking off a single model.

Also, with their incredibly bad leadership, a strain leader is almost a must....and he is very expensive to an alrady over costed model.

Will I still use vespid? Sure....but only in kill team or apoc.

Give them a spin, see how you like them.

I'm not saying that Vespid are good, I am just saying they aren't bad lol.

I mean there are meh units like Vespid and there are BAD units like Pyrovores and Rough Riders.

I would agree....vespid are....almost good.

So close.....

The kroot CC nerf....that was painful.
Can I trade my amazing 6+ save and the ability to use non-existent forests for my CC abilities back? Please?

I'm not saying that Vespid are good, I am just saying they aren't bad lol.

I mean there are meh units like Vespid and there are BAD units like Pyrovores and Rough Riders.

vespids are like pyrovors. they have to be at least just as good as units from their own slots and they have to be close to other units that do what they do , which is anti meq. They are far away from suits or Riptides , which both do anti meq . And as far as army utility goes they are up against stuff like pathfinders .

Kroot on the other hands are used very offten , they give sniper rilfes normal fire warriors don't have . They can be speed bump units and infiltration units pushers , if someone doesn't use supplements or inq as ally . They are just as good fire warriors in becoming a rubber band around broadsides , riptides and hammer heads. They are a good unit taken in good tau tournament and non tournament lists. So they are a total opposit of what vespids are.

Makumba wrote:

I'm not saying that Vespid are good, I am just saying they aren't bad lol.

I mean there are meh units like Vespid and there are BAD units like Pyrovores and Rough Riders.

vespids are like pyrovors. they have to be at least just as good as units from their own slots and they have to be close to other units that do what they do , which is anti meq. They are far away from suits or Riptides , which both do anti meq . And as far as army utility goes they are up against stuff like pathfinders .

Kroot on the other hands are used very offten , they give sniper rilfes normal fire warriors don't have . They can be speed bump units and infiltration units pushers , if someone doesn't use supplements or inq as ally . They are just as good fire warriors in becoming a rubber band around broadsides , riptides and hammer heads. They are a good unit taken in good tau tournament and non tournament lists. So they are a total opposit of what vespids are.

Vespid aren't good because the are in a codex filled with extremely powerful options. Pryrovores aren't good because they are just straight up a bad unit, a heavy flamer that can't be hidden in a unit, has to walk across the table, that explodes when it is killed with insta-death more than likely killing your own units in the process, it's deceptively good melee attack that it only gets ONE of, they are just bad in a vacuum while the Vespid is bad in comparison.

I like kroot I like to take 16 with sniper rounds I find it really useful.
Vespids I want to like, but there is a ton of AP3 available for Tau. I think that they would be better IF they didn't cost so much points wise. They aren't really that bad and it is fun to use them but don't expect them to make their points value back

I find Kroot to be amazing. Their deployment options alone make them worth their price. For under 300 points you get two units of 20 Kroot and one hound with sniper ammo and can infiltrate or outflank with acute senses. With the hound added it it'll take 6 wounds per squad to force a morale check, which has significantly increased my Kroot's table time.

They did get nerfed in CC, which I think is fine. With Rapid Fire weapons they weren't meant to really charge in to combat. Their melee attacks are at AP5 now, so there was one small bonus for them.

I actually only take Kroot as my troop choices now, since I find Firewarriors to be too static for me.

What kills Vespid for me really is the entry right below them, gun drone squads. For the same price in 4 vespid you get 5 gun drones. Same T, same 4+ save, and higher base Ld for the drones, weapons both have S5 and 18" range. The vespid get +1 cover in ruins while the drones get to JSJ possibly out of LOS. IMHO I find the JSJ to be more valuable on a short range platform.
Mathhammer out the damage output for 5 drones to 4 vespid shooting at MEQ in the open:
Vespid: 4 shots, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds.
drones: 10 shots, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, and 1.11 unsaved wounds.
Vespid come out slightly higher assuming no cover save.
but with even a 6+ GTG save it comes out to just about 1.11 unsaved wounds, and it will progressively get more in favor of the drones the better the save.

It gets a lot worse when you start looking at things like Piranha, which come with plenty of free drones along with a decent number of S5 shots on their own, and how a drone controller with increase the effectiveness of the squad.
The last drawback is that the drones will never be a scoring unit or denial unit.

I like the fluff of the Kroot, but I never have used them in a game. I felt that fire warriors where better for troops. The hounds are interesting but kroot have rapid fire guns which makes assaults weird.

I never really cared for the Vespid. For the fast attack slot, pathfinders will always be chosen over them. Crisis suits do their job and better.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I find Kroot to be amazing.

Not to mention Marker light buff for them and other non tau tau units from 4th to 6th

 R3YNO wrote:
I like the fluff of the Kroot, but I never have used them in a game. I felt that fire warriors where better for troops. The hounds are interesting but kroot have rapid fire guns which makes assaults weird.

I never really cared for the Vespid. For the fast attack slot, pathfinders will always be chosen over them. Crisis suits do their job and better.

Kroot arent really geared up for assault nowdays, they are more of the speed bump unit they have to get through before they get to juicy fire warriors and the like when it comes to CC, they are best used as a unit full of snipers to gun down MCs