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Hello, I am looking to get feedback on a article I wrote, I am sure that there are spelling errors and such, but I am also looking for feedback on the topic, which is how space marines deal with fliers. Thanks in advance for any tips, or suggestions.

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To start with, the plural of "flyer" is "flyers"

I would probably order the results tables so the same weapon lines up rather than by best performance.

There is also something wrong with your math. The stormraven has a 75% chance to explode an AV10 vehicle. I imagine you forgot the missiles?

You do not take into account the AV10 butt shot of the stormtalon using an overfly and it's assault cannon. This is why most people do not take the lascannon as the butt shot gives a 19% chance against AV10.

You really should use damage per point as a metric. You have a unit that constantly comes in on top your ratings that you wave away for a 75 pts price difference. Even though it more than double the performance of your top contender on many categories. If you do so you will find the stormraven is better than you rate. The hunter on the other hand is really bad in that metric.

Damage per point is okay but utterly ignores certain things. So i thik its okay to mention without giving it too much weight. I can have an entire unit of Wraithguard that kill a ton o stuff... If...they ever arrive. there's a cool pair 72 point Dark eldar unit that has two lances and per point rocks when it kills a Land Raider.

the Mutilators I use in my Night Lord list are 61 points and can kill any tank you want and anyone you want...if they get their attack off.

So...

Yes, damage per point is not everything but if you base decisions off of average damage anyway but then modify the decision based on points then what metric should you use? Damage per point obviously. Damage per point is obviously not everything or even half of everything but it is a much better metric than to guesstimate the effects of points on the damage ranking.

Funnily enough I did actually point out a situation where a straight damage analysis is flawed (ie rear firing stormtalon into AV10 rear armour).

He asked for input. So when he puts his article together, im just saying that if you include damage per point analysis, make sure to give it the weight its due (or not due depending on how you look at it).

The proviso always being, of course: "When allowed to act in its intended role..."

 greyknight12 wrote:
To start with, the plural of "flyer" is "flyers"

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/flyer
"Flyer can also be spelled flier, with an i: both are correct."

 ansacs wrote:
I would probably order the results tables so the same weapon lines up rather than by best performance.

There is also something wrong with your math. The stormraven has a 75% chance to explode an AV10 vehicle. I imagine you forgot the missiles?

You do not take into account the AV10 butt shot of the stormtalon using an overfly and it's assault cannon. This is why most people do not take the lascannon as the butt shot gives a 19% chance against AV10.

You really should use damage per point as a metric. You have a unit that constantly comes in on top your ratings that you wave away for a 75 pts price difference. Even though it more than double the performance of your top contender on many categories. If you do so you will find the stormraven is better than you rate. The hunter on the other hand is really bad in that metric.

Thanks for the feedback! On the Storm Raven with missiles thing, I am not that good at math, so I use a online calculation tool, that only allows you to combine two percentage chances. Can you point me to a fill in the field style calcualtor that would allow me to do more than two? That would be of great help.

I was unsure of how to handle the buttshot thing with the Storm Talon, since it is all situational, and you can always reference the Assault Cannons stats against AV10 at the end of the article, should I make a point of this when talking about how the storm talon works against AV11 or AV12? Or how would you handle presenting the data.

Can you be more specific on your last point? Thanks to the 11th company, I am aware of what DPP is, but am not sure about the rest of the commment. I would say that the Storm Raven will kill just about everything dead, but there is more than the sheer ability to kill something that goes into what unit you should use for what, point cost is a very big factor as well. And the Storm Raven takes a HS slot, which is full of goodies for the space marines.

Thanks for all your feedback! I do appreciate it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
To start with, the plural of "flyer" is "flyers"

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/flyer
"Flyer can also be spelled flier, with an i: both are correct."

Not that a horrible speller like me would know!

MADLarkin wrote:Thanks for the feedback! On the Storm Raven with missiles thing, I am not that good at math, so I use a online calculation tool, that only allows you to combine two percentage chances. Can you point me to a fill in the field style calcualtor that would allow me to do more than two? That would be of great help.

I don't know of any calculator but what you do to get the final percentage is take the chance for you to fail exploding it with each weapon and multiply them together. You then subtract that from 100% (or 1 if using decimals like you should be). So for the stormraven;
Missiles; 14.8% (0.148 decimal form) chance to explode AV12
TL-Lascannon; 14.8% (0.148 decimal form) chance to explode AV12
TL-MM; 37.0% (0.37 decimal form) chance to explode AV12
The chance for each of these to fail is then 1-0.148 = 0.852, 1-0.148 = 0.852, 1-0.37 = 0.63
Multiply those 0.63*0.852*0.852 = 0.457 for the chance all the shots fail to explode the AV12 vehicle
Subtract that from 1; 1-0.457 = 0.542 or 54.2% chance to explode AV12

MADLarkin wrote:I was unsure of how to handle the buttshot thing with the Storm Talon, since it is all situational, and you can always reference the Assault Cannons stats against AV10 at the end of the article, should I make a point of this when talking about how the storm talon works against AV11 or AV12? Or how would you handle presenting the data.

Probably a note in the section where you list it in the ratings for it. Also you can give a nod to how damage calculations don't tell you everything and this is a perfect example.

MADLarkin wrote:Can you be more specific on your last point? Thanks to the 11th company, I am aware of what DPP is, but am not sure about the rest of the commment. I would say that the Storm Raven will kill just about everything dead, but there is more than the sheer ability to kill something that goes into what unit you should use for what, point cost is a very big factor as well. And the Storm Raven takes a HS slot, which is full of goodies for the space marines.

For example if we take the AV12 results the hunter has an explodes DPP of 344 while the stormraven has a DPP of 271. The stormtalon w/ TL-LC has a DPP of 166 on the other hand. All you need to do is divide the damage result by the cost of the unit in pts and multiply by 1000 (to get a nice round number). You can also do the same with the HP damage but the explodes and HP damage will not be comparable.

The interesting thing is that the stormraven is actually better DPP (explode) wise than the stormtalon with TL-LC for killing AV11 and AV10.

Also on the utility of the unit that is something that can only be measure by the meta and rest of the list. The stormraven is great in my lists as I want hellturkeys dead immediately due to the heavy bike component of my SM lists. I also make good use of the transport capacity and find the rear AV12 and independent firing MM to be fantastic. Others like the utility of the stormraven though and need the extra HS slot (I do not as I only even take either 2 TFC or 1 TFC and grav cents). The hunter is actually much better than I thought but suffers from a lack of utility and being HS as you said, contested.

MADLarkin wrote:Thanks for all your feedback! I do appreciate it.

I am happy if any of it helps. Thanks for the article as it made me realize the hunter is actually pretty good from a math standpoint.

Why can't math sites explain calculating percentages like you just did? That makes it easy! Thanks again for all the help, I will be cleaning it up a bit. I created a Vanillia marine facebook group where I publish the articles for my local gaming group. I agree, I thought the Hunter was crap, until I really dug into it.