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HQ1
3x Aspiring Champs with: P. Fist, Mark of Tzeentch, Demonic Speed, Warp Focus, Warp Talisman, Gift of Chaos
(294)

HQ2
3x Aspiring Champs with: P. Fist, Mark of Tzeentch, Warp Talisman, Gift of Chaos, 4x Thralls
(294)

Troops
20x Mutants with: Mutant Boss (with P. Fist), Blessing of Tzeentch
(HQ1 goes in here)
(278)

28x Mutants with: Mutant Boss (with P. Fist)
(HQ2 goes in here)
(200)

3x 5 Traitor Guard with lascannon
(180)

Heavy
Leman Russ w/ hull mounted heavy bolter and heavy bolter sponsons
(155)
Baslisk
(100)

Total:  1501

The idea behind the army is based upon mass spamming of Gift of Chaos.  The mutant squad with speed should be fast enough and have enough hidden p. fists to give most things a run for their money.  The second squad should  play clean up and both of them can use Gift of Chaos as spot removal for problem models.  The added benefit is that every model you spawn then swells your ranks and adds a pretty nice fighter.  I understand that after the demonic speed unit spawns one model that they'll lose their speed.  By that time they should be across the table so it shouldn't matter much.

You may be saying, "but you can't have more then one aspiring champ in a unit".  That's not true.  The wording for aspiring champs says that they must be "allocated to a unit" before battle begins.  Nowhere does it say they have to be seperate units.

This is by no means a "polished" list.  It's more of an experiment then anything else but I've always wanted to play a T.Son/Tzeentch list and this seemed an effective yet in theme army.

I welcome all discussion.

It doesn't seem like you've got enough bodies to get you there;  mutant losses will be atrocious as you surge forward, and a good countercharge may be able to wipe you out one wave at a time.  Your fast squad is 23 strong; against a decent shooty army, it'll be decimated quickly, and those AC's are going to be a 300 point snack.  Against an assault army, you're going to get chewed up one mob at a time unless you move both mutant squads at the same speed (negating the speed you're paying for).

I do like the idea, but part of the point of mutants is to act as extra wounds for the Boss and AC with their powerfists.  I'd cram as many mutants as possible into each mob, and if you can swing it, give one AC in each squad the Mark of Chaos Undivided for that tasty, tasty leadership re-roll.

I could be TOTALLY off here, though.  I'd like to see what other people think.

Good points. I kind of built each mutant squad to show the different variantions you could attempt. I agree that maybe numbers is the way to go in this instance. In which case, by dropping the speed you'd have more then enough points to get more mutants.

Good idea about the AC with undivided. With the thralls you'd still be able to cast Gift of Chaos 4 times each round and you'd also have the advantage of better leadership.

If I read this list right you have 6 AC?

yes, there are 6 AC's. You get 1-3 for each HQ choice.

Why are you wasting so many points on your AC? According to the rules you can only have one AC per mutant squad.

I designed a Tzeentch LaTD and if you remove 3 AC you have room for another squad of mutants. Also remove the Tzeentch marking from you first mutant squad beacuse its a waste of points.


So redo your list and I will look at it later.:>

Read his initial post.  As the rules stand now, you can have more than one AC per squad (it doesn't specify a limit). 

Are you playing  with the English version of the codex?  Codexes in other languages may have a different wording.

Is there any way to give the AC's and Mutant squads Infiltrate? I have never read the codex, so I don't know.

If it is possible, it would increase the chances of being able to pull off your trick. I can imagine low toughness armies not being real thrilled with having 3-4 spawns per turn popping up.

May not be too terribly effective against "competitive" armies, but would be fun to play (hope you own a lot of spawn models

Sal

Posted By Iorek on 04/07/2006 11:45 AM
Read his initial post.  As the rules stand now, you can have more than one AC per squad (it doesn't specify a limit). 

Are you playing  with the English version of the codex?  Codexes in other languages may have a different wording.

 

 

Yes the book is in english and I know that you can have up to 6 AC, but why would you without a mutant squad to attach it to.  Its just a waste of points

Posted By Saldiven on 04/07/2006 1:11 PM
Is there any way to give the AC's and Mutant squads Infiltrate? I have never read the codex, so I don't know.

If it is possible, it would increase the chances of being able to pull off your trick. I can imagine low toughness armies not being real thrilled with having 3-4 spawns per turn popping up.

May not be too terribly effective against "competitive" armies, but would be fun to play (hope you own a lot of spawn models

Sal

No infiltrate allowed, but I wished.  with one AC per big mutant squad he should be able to.

Posted By Iron_Wolves on 04/07/2006 2:10 PM

Posted By Iorek on 04/07/2006 11:45 AM
Read his initial post.  As the rules stand now, you can have more than one AC per squad (it doesn't specify a limit). 

Are you playing  with the English version of the codex?  Codexes in other languages may have a different wording.

 

 

Yes the book is in english and I know that you can have up to 6 AC, but why would you without a mutant squad to attach it to.  Its just a waste of points

If you read the post you are quoting than you will see that they are saying, yes, there is a mutant squad to attach it to.

The idea is to spam Gift of Chaos. The only way to make gift of Chaos dependable is to get multiple rolls, especially with so many MEQ's running around. With 3-6 casts at each unit your in combat with you should be able to do some nasty things.

I could be wrong but this seems like a really scary close combat unit. It's akin to deathblow in fantasy....because on a 6 any model is going to be turned to a spawn. Plus, you've got a ton of P. fist attacks. Then you can use the rest of the LatD list to fill out holes in the list such as anti-tank and whatnot.

Only one AC per mutant squad not 3.

I would be happy to agree with you but please tell me where you are finding this. The codex only says that AC's have to be assigned to a squad before the game begins. Nowhere that I can see does it say that AC's have to be assigned to different units. Therefore, it would stand to reason that you could have multiple AC's in the same unit as the only stipulation is that they are assigned.

Just to point out, all of this was explained in the initial post.

Posted By Trunks2560 on 04/07/2006 11:02 PM
I would be happy to agree with you but please tell me where you are finding this. The codex only says that AC's have to be assigned to a squad before the game begins. Nowhere that I can see does it say that AC's have to be assigned to different units. Therefore, it would stand to reason that you could have multiple AC's in the same unit as the only stipulation is that they are assigned.

Just to point out, all of this was explained in the initial post.

 

 

Read the entire sentence word for word and you will have your answere.

"Each campion must be allocated to LEAD a unit of traitor or mutants prior to deployment."  

Last I knew you could only have one model leading any unit. 

                                   -K

 

 

 

K: Thank you! I've been running around and trying to get an answer for this on almost every board I can think of. I'm more then happy to agree with you that my idea is flawed. What I'd like to know is where you found that only one model can lead a unit? I'm not trying to argue or be difficult. I just really want to know how this entire idea shakes out under the rules.

Just for the sake of discussion on this issue, what if I was to add an Arch Heretic to a unit of mutants with an AC in it. Under this circumstance who would be "leading" the unit? Would both be considered leaders? For that matter would the mutant champ be considered a leader? Do you have to designate a model to be a leader?

Lost and the Damned Roster - Unnamed

3 x Mutants Squad (30#, 289 Pts)
   24 Mutants @ 289 Pts
      Blades, spears, pistols (x24); Frag Grenades
      1 Daemonic Mutation @ [0] Pts
      1 Daemonic Resilience @ [0] Pts
      1 Mutant Boss @ [32] Pts
         Powerfist (x1); Frag Grenades (Squad)
         1 Daemonic Mutation @ [0] Pts
         1 Daemonic Resilience @ [0] Pts
      1 Chaos Sorceror  of Tzeentch @ [113] Pts
         Sorceror; Close combat weapon (x1); Powerfist (x1); Frag Grenades (Squad)
         1 Mark of Tzeentch @ [10] Pts
         1 Daemonic Mutation @ [10] Pts
         0 Warp Focus @ [0] Pts
         1 Gift of Chaos @ [20] Pts
         1 Thrall Wizard @ [5] Pts
         1 Thrall Wizard @ [5] Pts
         1 Thrall Wizard @ [5] Pts
         1 Thrall Wizard @ [5] Pts

3 x Traitor Squad (5#, 60 Pts)
   5 Traitors @ 60 Pts
      Frag Grenades; Lasgun (x3); Lascannon (2 crew)
      1 Infiltrate @ [0] Pts

Basilisk (1#, 125 Pts)
   1 Traitor Basilisk @ 125 Pts
      Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Indirect Fire Capability

Leman Russ Battle Tank (1#, 170 Pts)
   1 Traitor Leman Russ @ 170 Pts
      Extra Armour; Battlecannon; Hull Lascannon; Sponson Heavy Bolter
      1 Extra Armour @ [5] Pts

40K unit (4#, 80 Pts)
   4 Chaos Spawn @ 80 Pts

Total Roster Cost: 1422

Here is a list I worked on, and you have 78 pts to work with.

Posted By Trunks2560 on 04/08/2006 4:35 PM
Just for the sake of discussion on this issue, what if I was to add an Arch Heretic to a unit of mutants with an AC in it. Under this circumstance who would be "leading" the unit? Would both be considered leaders? For that matter would the mutant champ be considered a leader? Do you have to designate a model to be a leader?

This is another case of when the rules CLEARLY mean one thing, yet people get really clever with thier own interpretation and get other meanings.  Basically, the argument you are making is "well, the rules don't say I cant."  Any long term gamer will realize that's rules lawyering at its worst.  I'm all for cool and clever lists, I use some... but I don't try and "brake" the rules set while doing so.

I think the only thing that the rules are CLEAR on is that AC's can't be independant characters in LatD. It's obvious that they have to be attached to something. Additionally, the rule book never defines "leader", which is interesting when you have multiple characters in a unit with the same leadership. Also, let us not forget that the idea of multiple AC's in the same unit is not without precedence in the Chaos codex.

I"m not trying to "brake" anything. What I'm trying to do is get some sort of answer to this question that is reasoned out. I honestly could care less if this idea is bunk!