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Dear Dakka,

I have tried to search and understand this situation and I don't totally get it.

Please excuse the random models ive used for the example photo

In photo A , my DP is facing 2 units - He didn't use his wings in the movement phase and I declare my intent to charge the rear unit. Since he is a jump unit he can fly over the front unit (unit a) and assault the 2nd unit (unit b).



Now in photo B - he is in combat with unit B - but he is also in base contact with unit A - can he engage them both in multiple combat? If not, why and under what circumstance can he?




I hope my question makes sense.

Thanks

The rules for charging specifically forbid you from moving into base contact with a unit that you aren't assaulting.

So if the charge was declared against unit B, you can't also move into base contact with unit A.


You also can't declare a disordered charge with a unit of a single model, since the first model can only move onto the Primary target. It's only if that Primary charge is successful that models can move onto the secondary target. A single-model unit can only ever charge a single enemy unit.

 insaniak wrote:
The rules for charging specifically forbid you from moving into base contact with a unit that you aren't assaulting.

So if the charge was declared against unit B, you can't also move into base contact with unit A.


You also can't declare a disordered charge with a unit of a single model, since the first model can only move onto the Primary target. It's only if that Primary charge is successful that models can move onto the secondary target. A single-model unit can only ever charge a single enemy unit.

Hi Insaniak,

Thanks for the quick response - so does that mean I can't assault unit b? Or that I can and unit A simply is unaffected? Even though unit A is within in base to base?

Hey there insaniak, can you provide a page number or ref to why a single model cannot charge 2 units if it's able to get into b2b

mr2600 wrote:Thanks for the quick response - so does that mean I can't assault unit b? Or that I can and unit A simply is unaffected? Even though unit A is within in base to base?

If he can't move into base contact with unit B without also basing unit A, he would be unable to charge, as the rules for charging forbid you from moving into base contact with a unit you are not assaulting, and he can't assault both units.

Formosa wrote:Hey there insaniak, can you provide a page number or ref to why a single model cannot charge 2 units if it's able to get into b2b

It's in the rules for Multiple Assaults on page 27 and 28.

You declare primary and secondary targets. The first charger is only given permission to move into contact with the Primary target, and if he can't do so the charge fails. You can only move into contact with the Secondary target if a charging model can not get into base contact with the Primary... and since the first model has to get into base contact with the Primary target, this is impossible.



What I also just realised from this is that under these rules, it's actually illegal for any model to move into base contact with both units in a Multiple Assault.

 Formosa wrote:
Hey there insaniak, can you provide a page number or ref to why a single model cannot charge 2 units if it's able to get into b2b

Just read the rules for multi-charging. Its very clear that multi-charges are only executed by models that can't get into contact with the primary assault target which is impossible for the first model in the charge to do since they have to make contact with the primary assault target.

And back to the topic at hand yes you can charge unit b but you can only move to somewhere that you are not also in b2b with a unit you aren't in combat with so the picture you have is illegal and you'd have to go to the side of unit b to assault them.

You can't charge through models, either. In fact, from my extensive knowledge of cock-blocking beast packs, you can never move through models, especially in the assault phase. Being an FMC/JMC doesn't change this.

The fmc used its wings in assault to move over

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
You can't charge through models, either. In fact, from my extensive knowledge of cock-blocking beast packs, you can never move through models, especially in the assault phase. Being an FMC/JMC doesn't change this.

You are right that FMC and jump/jet units can't assault through units

That's why they move over them instead

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
You can't charge through models, either. In fact, from my extensive knowledge of cock-blocking beast packs, you can never move through models, especially in the assault phase. Being an FMC/JMC doesn't change this.

You are right that FMC and jump/jet units can't assault through units

That's why they move over them instead

Jet units cannot move over another unit in the assault phase, unless they thrust move; they're infantry in the assault phase when charging - they can only be JPI if thrusting or moving as such with the required penalties in the movement phase.

You may be right about FMC/JMC though, I don't know. I thought you just got HoW and Fleet equivalent if you charged with jump packs.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
You can't charge through models, either. In fact, from my extensive knowledge of cock-blocking beast packs, you can never move through models, especially in the assault phase. Being an FMC/JMC doesn't change this.

You are right that FMC and jump/jet units can't assault through units

That's why they move over them instead

Jet units cannot move over another unit in the assault phase, unless they thrust move; they're infantry in the assault phase when charging - they can only be JPI if thrusting or moving as such with the required penalties in the movement phase.

You may be right about FMC/JMC though, I don't know. I thought you just got HoW and Fleet equivalent if you charged with jump packs.

by Jet I was referring to jetbikes as well which definitely can assault over units

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
You can't charge through models, either. In fact, from my extensive knowledge of cock-blocking beast packs, you can never move through models, especially in the assault phase. Being an FMC/JMC doesn't change this.

You are right that FMC and jump/jet units can't assault through units

That's why they move over them instead

Jet units cannot move over another unit in the assault phase, unless they thrust move; they're infantry in the assault phase when charging - they can only be JPI if thrusting or moving as such with the required penalties in the movement phase.

You may be right about FMC/JMC though, I don't know. I thought you just got HoW and Fleet equivalent if you charged with jump packs.

by Jet I was referring to jetbikes as well which definitely can assault over units

D'oh. You cna tell I'm a Tau player.

Ya your picture is pretty straight forward. The daemon prince cannot move over to charge the unit in the back because he must remain one inch from the unit he didn't charge. If he was on the side he can charge the second unit as long as he stays away from the non charge unit. He ( the daemon prince) by himself can never charge two separate units.

He doesn't have to remain one inch away as he has declared a charge. That restriction is lifted. He just can't move into base-to-base with more than one model, he has to go on a direct route closest-to-closest.

Thanks again for all the great feed back.

So the part that I struggle with is:

"he must use the most direct route" - but that direct route ends him up in b2b with a second unit.

Does that mean that I can instead move him to the side? Which rule over rides which rule?

Which is more important - taking the shortest route - or not being in b2b with a second unit?

The shortest route has to follow the rules on moving. You cannot end up in base to base, so the shortest route cannot end up with the model in base.

Both. Just like you're not forced to charge through impassable terrain - since that move is illegal you go to where it is legal as long as you have the distance.

mr2600 wrote:
"he must use the most direct route" - but that direct route ends him up in b2b with a second unit.

...which means that isn't a direct route into the combat... because you can't get there as it would be an illegal move.

So the answer to this:

Which is more important - taking the shortest route - or not being in b2b with a second unit?

...is 'both'. The most directroute is one that is a legal move, which means not leaving you in an illegal end position.

and if you follow the above and still hit 2 units (say a trygon base) then what happens, and dont say its not possible because the shortest route etc CAN end up taking you into 2 units, the only question is, if it does, do you assault both

No, it *can't* because it is against the rules.

Just like you can't end up on top of your models, you can't end up on top of impassable terrain, you can't end up in base contact with a second unit.

The 'shortest' means the 'shortest legal' route.

 Formosa wrote:
and if you follow the above and still hit 2 units (say a trygon base) then what happens, and dont say its not possible because the shortest route etc CAN end up taking you into 2 units, the only question is, if it does, do you assault both

It's not possible. It doesn't say "Shortest route" it says "Shortest route possible", which is previously defined as "as measured by the shortest route possible, going around ... enemy models in other units." If you made base contact with a different unit, that wasn't the Shortest Route Possible as defined in the book, because the Shortest Route Possible goes around other units.

 Formosa wrote:
and if you follow the above and still hit 2 units (say a trygon base) then what happens, and dont say its not possible because the shortest route etc CAN end up taking you into 2 units, the only question is, if it does, do you assault both

The shortest route can not take you into two units, because you can't legally end your movement there.

If I try to go to Dublin, and I take a low road that runs me straight into a lake and that's as far as I get, that wasn't a route to Dublin... it was a route to the lake. If the high road is longer, but actually gets me to Dublin, then that's the shortest route to Dublin.

This is no different. You are forbidden from moving into base contact with a unit you are not charging. So if the shortest path from your starting point to the enemy unit results in you being in base contact with another unit, that isn't the shortest route into base contact with your target, because you're forbidden from finishing that movement; that route doesn't get you to your target. Ergo, it isn't the shortest route to that target.

are you people actually saying you have never seen or been in a situation where this could happen? I find that very hard to believe, its not impossible, it may not be in the confine of the rules but its not impossible.

 Formosa wrote:
and if you follow the above and still hit 2 units (say a trygon base) then what happens, and dont say its not possible because the shortest route etc CAN end up taking you into 2 units, the only question is, if it does, do you assault both

It may be physically possible but it is also completely illegal according to the rules.

 Formosa wrote:
are you people actually saying you have never seen or been in a situation where this could happen? I find that very hard to believe, its not impossible, it may not be in the confine of the rules but its not impossible.

I think you'll find that if the rules explicitly prohibit the thing you are trying to do then it is, in fact, impossible to do. At least impossible to do without breaking the rules, which would be cheating.

 Formosa wrote:
are you people actually saying you have never seen or been in a situation where this could happen?

No, we're saying that when this situation arises, the shortest route into the combat is the one that gets you there without breaking any rules.

Yes, absolutely it's not impossible for two units to be close enough together that a particular route into base combat with one unit would result in you being in contact with the other. The point is simply that doing so would be illegal - you have to move into base contact by a route that doesnt result in you contacting another unit.

 Formosa wrote:
are you people actually saying you have never seen or been in a situation where this could happen? I find that very hard to believe, its not impossible, it may not be in the confine of the rules but its not impossible.

In, it is not possible. The shortest route must be the one that doesn't break any rules. If you move into b2b with two units, that is an illegal move.