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I've been having a look over the eldar codex, as it was left at mine after a games day.

I've had the opportunity to think about how some of the units work, without someone saying "wave serpent."

I've been thinking that a psuedo wraithguard/serpent spam list would make a solid, if not brutal army.

My reasoning is thus:

you get 6 troops; 4 being wraithguard at 1850, 2 being Dire Avengers. With a Farseer and a Spiritseer (in different units) you have an 1850 list which...

Won't die to Riptides (Until you disgorge your troops, of course; but you won't do that until you're within 24" range!)
Will Kill Riptides fairly easily. (20 S10AP2 shots from all the WG is 13 hits is 2 6's, there's about a 1.33 chance of it failing its 5+ invulnerable save, so it should be flattened in one go, even if it isn't, you still have another 8 wounds that has to chew through.
Has Hardy enough armour that it can be on the field all game and probably won't get tabled.
Will Hold an objective with an undepleted WG unit late game.

IF you go first, you've got almost no threats; you can kill a fateweaver in one go if you unload 4/6 serpents into it.
Most units are easier to kill than a monster that's usually wel hidden first turn.

Your expectations of this list aren't really very realistic.

Riptides with support from either buff commanders or markerlights kill Serpents just fine. Same goes for Broadsides.

As for it killing Riptides fairly easily; you assume all 20 get to fire at one, that it only gets a 5+, and that there is such a thing as a "1.33 chance." You're also assuming your opponents will do silly things like actually deploying Fateweaver in LoS if you're going first.

It's not an awful list, after all it has six Serpents and decent scoring, but I don't think it's particularly great either.

Okay, as Iranna would say, you summoned my to comment Eldar Wraith units.
I have played Wraithguard in the former edition and I always found that they were underwhelming and overpriced. This still holds in the new edition of the codex. I'm prefering Fire Dragons all day.

Thud wrote:Your expectations of this list aren't really very realistic.

Riptides with support from either buff commanders or markerlights kill Serpents just fine. Same goes for Broadsides.

As for it killing Riptides fairly easily; you assume all 20 get to fire at one, that it only gets a 5+, and that there is such a thing as a "1.33 chance." You're also assuming your opponents will do silly things like actually deploying Fateweaver in LoS if you're going first.

It's not an awful list, after all it has six Serpents and decent scoring, but I don't think it's particularly great either.

I don't plan on using the serpent shield as a weapon while there's a riptide in play. Unless my opponent has 3 buffmanders, he's not going to be ignoring my cover every time and 1 S9AP2 shot will usually end up glancing against a wave serpent.

It only gets a 5+ against an instant death shot - if It's got its 3++ up, I'm not going to go for it.

It can bring down fateweaver if he's in the sky, but that's just by merit of serpent output.

By "1.33" chance I mean you do 2 wounds, of which you have an average of 1.33 being unsaved (a 5++ with no FNP.) also there is such a thing as a 1.33 chance. It's 133% chance of something happening. I.e; it'll happen every time, and twice once every third try. (not that this will actually happen every try, since it is entirely concieveable that an opponent rolls 2 5's on saves.)

wuestenfux wrote:Okay, as Iranna would say, you summoned my to comment Eldar Wraith units.
I have played Wraithguard in the former edition and I always found that they were underwhelming and overpriced. This still holds in the new edition of the codex. I'm prefering Fire Dragons all day.

I don't think WG are overpriced. I mean, they'd be nicer with two wounds, but they're good as they are. They're harder to touch than terminators (getting wounded on a 6+ instead of a 5+ by lasguns can be very useful.) I don't expect the WG to do very much unless I get decidedly lucky, but their shooting can add a good amount of hitting power in the right situations. (getting them into those situations is the key.)

With this army, I'm not looking at an army that should win every tournament. I already have a Tau army to do that. What I want is an army where I'm going to be rolling a fair amount of dice and have a decent chance of winning against things that aren't rush lists. I think I have that in this army.

Despite them being underwhelming (I was not going into this not knowing that they don't actually have that much output.) is there a place for them in the friendlier of tournaments?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
I don't plan on using the serpent shield as a weapon while there's a riptide in play. Unless my opponent has 3 buffmanders, he's not going to be ignoring my cover every time and 1 S9AP2 shot will usually end up glancing against a wave serpent.

I was referring to HBC Riptides with tank hunter and all that. Shield or not, you'll get glanced to death. Iontides are not as good, but can reliably put a couple of hull points on a Serpent every turn.

By "1.33" chance I mean you do 2 wounds, of which you have an average of 1.33 being unsaved (a 5++ with no FNP.)

That makes more sense.

also there is such a thing as a 1.33 chance. It's 133% chance of something happening. I.e; it'll happen every time, and twice once every third try. (not that this will actually happen every try, since it is entirely concieveable that an opponent rolls 2 5's on saves.)

No. That's not how probabilities work. At all.

You are attempting X. The probability of X occurring can be expressed either through percentages (0-100%) or as a number between 0 and 1. 0 (or 0%) means it cannot happen, not that it's super unlikely to, but that it literally cannot happen. E.g., ten Marines with only bolters have a probability of 0 (or a 0% chance) to cause a wound to a Wraithknight from shooting. 1 (or 100%) means that it must happen every time. Note the word 'must.' Not should happen every time. Must happen.

It is possible that 20 Wraithguard shooting at a Riptide do not kill it. You could roll twenty ones to hit, unlikely as it is. But it is possible. Therefore the probability of killing a Riptide with 20 Wraithguard must be less than 1.

With this army, I'm not looking at an army that should win every tournament. I already have a Tau army to do that. What I want is an army where I'm going to be rolling a fair amount of dice and have a decent chance of winning against things that aren't rush lists. I think I have that in this army.

If that's what you are going for, you have it. Sort of. You kinda fall in between a rock and a hard place, though, because the army is not very strong against the common top lists, but will probably roll over casual lists from the weaker codexes. So the casual players will complain about you being cheesy, and the good players will crush you.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
also there is such a thing as a 1.33 chance. It's 133% chance of something happening. I.e; it'll happen every time, and twice once every third try

Wat?

...

No.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
also there is such a thing as a 1.33 chance. It's 133% chance of something happening. I.e; it'll happen every time, and twice once every third try

Wat?

...

No.

It is used in games with random stat increases, like fire emblem.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Okay, as Iranna would say, you summoned my to comment Eldar Wraith units.
I have played Wraithguard in the former edition and I always found that they were underwhelming and overpriced. This still holds in the new edition of the codex. I'm prefering Fire Dragons all day.

Game on

I prefer Wraithguard over the likes of Fire Dragons due to a combination of Scoring and S10.

I've found that in this edition especially, the need for Melta has been greatly reduced. The Fusion Fun of the Fire Dragon will often be complete overkill on any vehicle it is pointed at, at which point the Fire Dragons will most likely be killed off in the enemy turn.

The Wraithguard, on the other hand, are scoring, +3T, +2S, -1I all for an extra ~50pts. Are they better than FDs at taking out armour? Of course not. Are they better at scaring off Daemon Princes and other multiple-would MCs? You bet!

Iranna.

Wraithguard are amazing in this edition and dex. Their guns being a hard S10 makes them better against armor and better at instagibbing T4/5. They are cheaper, and no longer need to be babysat by a psyker, with access to sweet d-scythes as well as the wraithcannon.

The real reason wraithguard are strong is because they stand on the shoulders of giants. Wave serpents are insane(using one is considered a war crime by the Geneva convention) and wraithguard riding in a serpent gives you a lot of killing power for the cost. The fact that all wraithguard are scoring if you take a spiritseer is the other strength. The spiritseer does not have to be in a wraith unit, but they bring some seriously good boosts to wraith constructs. The iyanden supplement is icing on the cake with multiple spiritseers, the ability to give wraiths battle focus and hand out spirit marks like candy. Wraithguard are not point for point the most efficent killing machines, but T6 power armored fearless troops with weapons that open holes in space time is straight money. The ability for wraithguard to take a beating and stand till the last man is critical in a game based on objectives.

Iranna wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Okay, as Iranna would say, you summoned my to comment Eldar Wraith units.
I have played Wraithguard in the former edition and I always found that they were underwhelming and overpriced. This still holds in the new edition of the codex. I'm prefering Fire Dragons all day.

Game on

I prefer Wraithguard over the likes of Fire Dragons due to a combination of Scoring and S10.

I've found that in this edition especially, the need for Melta has been greatly reduced. The Fusion Fun of the Fire Dragon will often be complete overkill on any vehicle it is pointed at, at which point the Fire Dragons will most likely be killed off in the enemy turn.

The Wraithguard, on the other hand, are scoring, +3T, +2S, -1I all for an extra ~50pts. Are they better than FDs at taking out armour? Of course not. Are they better at scaring off Daemon Princes and other multiple-would MCs? You bet!

Iranna.

Iranna is right. Nobody is arguing that fire dragons are cheaper, more efficent anti tank. However, it is wrong to compare the two. Fire dragons are specific, AT units that never score. If your taking wraithguard just for AT, your doing it wrong. Wraithguard are fearless T6 scoring units with S10 ap2 guns wearing power armor and costing less than a terminator. No other army has this kind of unit for such a bargain. In a codex where scoring units are T3 and lightly armored, wraithguard are very competititve.

I'm inclined to agree with Iranna and Serling. I don't use WG myself, but I recognize their potential, especially the Scytheguard, who have the added benefit that -nothing- not even TH/SS termies will want to assault them.

But I do use a Wraithknight, who apart from being such a beautiful model, is also absolutely worth every point. I'd say WG(both kinds) and the Knight are pretty much spot on with their points/power ratio.

EDIT: I'm also a prolific user of War Walkers with dual Scatterlasers and swear by them and I know Wuestenfux does the same(it's actually his post that got me into playing them about half a decade ago, haha! Not sure though, but it's as good a guess as any), so I think it's more a matter of personal taste. Some people prefer durability, some prefer firepower.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
also there is such a thing as a 1.33 chance. It's 133% chance of something happening. I.e; it'll happen every time, and twice once every third try

Wat?

...

No.

It is used in games with random stat increases, like fire emblem.

That doesn't make any sense, who cares if a video game uses percentages? This is about probability. Those kind of games tend to STACK percentages on top of each other until you're above 100%, it has no relation to actual probability.

As others have stated, you can't simply add together a bunch of wraithguard and say you're 100% certain to kill it. Yes, you're incredibly likely but not 100%.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
also there is such a thing as a 1.33 chance. It's 133% chance of something happening. I.e; it'll happen every time, and twice once every third try

Wat?

...

No.

It is used in games with random stat increases, like fire emblem.

That doesn't make any sense, who cares if a video game uses percentages? This is about probability. Those kind of games tend to STACK percentages on top of each other until you're above 100%, it has no relation to actual probability.

As others have stated, you can't simply add together a bunch of wraithguard and say you're 100% certain to kill it. Yes, you're incredibly likely but not 100%.

60% of the time it work every time.

On topic, I like the wraith guard. Tough unit that is strong against small arms fire.

133% Makes perfect sense in the realm of probability and in Fire Emblem (which uses more or less fixed percentages btw). Granted the times in 4th where anything is is 100% are rare, they do exist. It applies even more to fantasy though. Anytime you have a guaranteed effect you have 100% probability. If there is a chance to chain the effect, then those odds go up.

No...can we stop talking about probability in relation to fire emblem because I'm pretty sure it's not mathematically sound. There are no occurrences where something has a higher than 100% chance to happen if you're actually talking about probability and not video game math.

Yes shooting 20 bolters increases the chance of scoring a single hit but it can never be over 100%. There is no such thing as a 133% probability. It's between 0 and 1.

Like the chances that the Stormlord will impose night fighting for a turn? 100+%

Or the chances that Deathleaper will lower a model's leadership by a point? (If he still does that)

Each of those is at least a guaranteed occurrence with the possibility for increased effectiveness. 100% probability with a chance for more.

Yes I understand that but it's still not how you calculate probability.

Deathleaper has a 100% chance to reduce leadership by at least 1, 2/3rds chance by at least 2 and 1/3rd chance by at least 3. There is nothing in that which says it has more than a 100% chance to do something. Just because there are multiple outcomes that reduce LD by at least 1 doesn't mean you have over 100% chance, you have exactly a 100% chance.

Stormlord is the same deal

It's a question of what exactly you are asking. If it's the chances of a decrease of a point then it's 100+%. If it's the odds of a decrease of exactly 1 point then it's 100% on the button.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

First, You can never have more than 100% chance of something happening.

Second, None of this belongs in this topic.

Its impossible to have over 100% chance of an event occuring. If you say that 150% chance for example, means it is certain to occur once and has a half chance of occuring twice - you are now talking about 2 events not 1 therefore youbare talking about two seperate probabilities. You can get more than 100% in other walks of life (interest for example) but not in probability.

0 and 1 (in otherwords 0% and 100%) are absolutes. In probability they are called impossible and certain. The probability scale is based on this.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Its impossible to have over 100% chance of an event occuring. If you say that 150% chance for example, means it is certain to occur once and has a half chance of occuring twice - you are now talking about 2 events not 1 therefore youbare talking about two seperate probabilities. You can get more than 100% in other walks of life (interest for example) but not in probability.

0 and 1 (in otherwords 0% and 100%) are absolutes. In probability they are called impossible and certain. The probability scale is based on this.

Okay guys, back on topic maybe?

I still advocate Wraithguard!

Iranna.

I love wraiths, they are such a cool unit, but I wouldn't go out and buy a whole bunch of them all at once. One of the strongest things eldar has is jetbikes and your talking about not taking any of them. I can't tell you how many games I couldn't win because the eldar opponent turbo'd his bike to claim/contest an objective on the last turn of the game. If you haven't played with wriaths yet, play a few practice games with proxy models and see if you actually like them because some people say they are much better than they appear while others say they are horrible. It really depends on your playstyle. You may only want two units of wraiths, not 4 and having them as elite may not be the worst thing in the world, they can't score but you get a second farseer. Also you may want a wraith knight, the longer range and mobility of the wraith knight makes it often better than wraiths, also it does pretty good in combat.

Well, Wraiths can have a place in an Eldar army. But if you play Serpent storm, I cannot see the need for Wraiths. The enemy will be hard pressed to maintain a proper target schedule, and here Serpents (and maybe Warwalkers if you use them right) have top priority and not the (eventually disembarked) troops. On the other hand, you may use Wraiths in a mixed force, with foot sloggers and heavy skimmers. Such an army is generally not very competitive since you can hardly dictate the flow of the battle.

Question:

Wraithguard seem pretty cool to me. How come no one ever talks about running them with D-scythes?

Considering how easy it is to twin-link weapons in the Eldar codex, seems to me running Ap2, ignores cover weapons with the potential for instant death seems pretty fantastic especially if you drop Prescience on them so they get to reroll failed wounds. They're going to need to be in a wave serpent and it'll likely have to blow a turn turbo-boosting but that's not the worst thing in the world.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, Wraiths can have a place in an Eldar army. But if you play Serpent storm, I cannot see the need for Wraiths. The enemy will be hard pressed to maintain a proper target schedule, and here Serpents (and maybe Warwalkers if you use them right) have top priority and not the (eventually disembarked) troops. On the other hand, you may use Wraiths in a mixed force, with foot sloggers and heavy skimmers. Such an army is generally not very competitive since you can hardly dictate the flow of the battle.

The units inside of a wave serpent are like the surprise inside of the box of cereal, the toy in the kinder egg, or the toy in the happy meal. Short of the DAVU, eldar serpents carry some of the most lethal shooting units around. 10 guardians will shred marines, monsters, terminators and guardsmen alike. A weapon platform adds options. Avengers do the same as guardians, but with range. You like dragons, and I assume you don't footslog em. With battle focus and the speed/durability of serpents, you can get deadly units to their correct targets. Wave serpents are god awesome battle tanks, but they carry our scoring units, our specialists, and our bread and butter. If you are neglecting the unit inside the serpent, you fight with one hand behind your back.

Unless you just take an army of Walkers and straight DAVU+laughing, target priority is determined by the troops inside. True, serpents are equal in target priority, but if they are all the same, it just comes down to pick em off one at a time. I fail to see how a mixed or foot army will not be able to have a difficult target priority, or how it "cant dictate the flow of battle". Does this mean that only fast mobile armies can win?

Wraiths have a place in both list. With short ranged guns, they generally need serpents to get into position. D-scythes and wraithcannons are insanely good, but the probelm is getting them there. (I argue the only way to run scytheguard is 5 to 6 in a wave serpent). 5 in a serpent gets a serpent, with a unit inside that can put the hurt on a lot of targets. If you have them as a troop choice, you now have 5 fearless T6 scoring models. Considering how frail living eldar are, this is valuable. In a foot list, large blobs of wraithguard and even blades+psychic support are very good. With voice of twilight, you can get battle focus to get them into position, and again, it is not easy to dislodge 10 fearless T6 models in power armor(plus the psychic love they will be getting)

SRSFACE wrote:Question:

Wraithguard seem pretty cool to me. How come no one ever talks about running them with D-scythes?

Considering how easy it is to twin-link weapons in the Eldar codex, seems to me running Ap2, ignores cover weapons with the potential for instant death seems pretty fantastic especially if you drop Prescience on them so they get to reroll failed wounds. They're going to need to be in a wave serpent and it'll likely have to blow a turn turbo-boosting but that's not the worst thing in the world.

Answer:
A LOT of people run wraiths with scythes over the stock cannons. I use cannons 9 out of 10 times, but I have major respect for the scythe. Even without twin linking, scythes are one of the few weapons that is effective against every type of target but fliers. Instagibbing AP2 scares MC's, templates handle hordes, and the ability to penetrate armor on a 6 makes them like gauss weapons on steroids. Scythes in a serpent is fantastic, and the scytheguard are near unassaultable with the overwatch power. If you want to be extra ugly, take a spiritseer with them and use the iyanden supplement. Scytheguard with battle focus is borderline cheating, and with furious charge+spirit mark, you have the option to assault if anything survives. They are too expensive to go on foot though, even with psychic support.