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Pre-amble: I am not saying they are bad. Far from it! They are two of the best named characters in the book, if not the two best. With that in mind, continue reading.

Something that bothers me is all the named Dark Angels characters are better in other codexes than our own. Outside of Belial and Ezekiel, none of their abilities actually really mesh well with units inside our own codex. Sammael being on a jetbike means he never actually gets to utilize the fact it's a jetbike, and he's better off in a White Scars detachment because they don't actually have the Skilled Rider USR. Him conferring it to them means biker squads that have better weaponry through Grav guns gain a 3+ cover saves just for driving forward. Azrael gives his unit a 4++, which is kind of meaningless when he's probably going to be banging around with terminators, or sitting back with a banner command squad that's inside of a Land Raider anyway, or leading some company veterans who can already take storm shields. Azrael leading a 50-man imperial guard legion, though? Bananas. Azrael leading a 20-man Crusader squad? Silly and pretty awesome.

So let's kick some ideas around.

Sammael:
When attached to a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or Ravenwing Black Knights squadron, the unit gains +1 to their jink saves. (Basically, this would let him do with our own bikes what he can do with White Scars.)

Sammael in the Sableclaw gains "If there are no other HQ choices listed in your army, Sammael is the Warlord." (This needs to just be in the book anyway because technically he can't be the warlord in the Sableclaw as he is no longer a character.)

Azrael:
Make his Feel No Pain from his armor confer a +1 to Feel No Pain saves instead of giving a flat 6+. He's going to have 5+ FNP almost always because who doesn't include an apothecary with their command squads? If he's with some Deathwing homies, they'll probably be rocking the FNP Banner. Considering he's still just T4 and doesn't have eternal warrior, and he costs as many points as he does, I don't see it as a big issue and it'd make him an actual solid unit if only for tankiness.

Reword Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels rule to say "In a primary detachment that contains Azrael, Ravenwing Attack Squadrons and Deathwing Terminator Squads may be troop choices instead of their usual Force Organization categories." (Current wording is "are troop choices". If you want to bring a combination of RWAS and DTS squads that add up over 6, you should still be able to have them fill out their usual force org categories if you wish IMHO.)

Give him a special rule or tack it on to the end of the Lion Helm, "Azrael and any unit he is joined to from Codex Dark Angels ignores the Gets Hot! special rule." Again I don't really see this as overpowered, and it's a Dark Angely type of special ability fluff-wise. People still gots ta pay for the plasma guns. Best unit it'd be for is with some Company Vets or a Command Squad rocking 4 or 5 plasma guns/pistols because you could drop pod them in and blow up some stuff in a very Sternguard-like fashion. I mean you already CAN do that, but it'd make it so you'd have some protection against losing your own guys in case you rolled super bad. Every other unit that'd really benefit from this is already twin-linked which is pretty much better, or you can just run a Librarian and take Prescience.

I don't think the +1 to jink for Sammael is a good idea. We have black knights and dark shrouds aldready. Adding skilled rider to normal bikes is just overkill. The ONLY thing I'd change would be Sammael making Black knights elites instead of fast attack. At least it would be fluffy for a ravenwing list.

As for Azrael, I think he's good as is. He has just enough unique special rules to make him standout. We have divination psykers and preferred enemy for re-rolling gets hot.

You miss my point, though. Right now, Sammael and Azrael are significantly better in other armies. That doesn't seem wrong to you?

I am just throwing out ideas. Bring some of your own!

All I'm saying is that I don't think they're bad characters. I will debate the fact that they're better in other armies as well. Most if their rules only come into effec when they're part of your primary detachment. You can take them as allies, but that's throwing away azrael's warlord trait, and their force org schinanagins.
You want me to bring my own ideas? Sorry, I can't do that until I see a reason to change them. All I've heard is White scars jealousy and plasma woes. No offense man, sorry if I'm coming across as rude. It's great that your thinking of ways to make the game better. I just feel that azrael and sammael are two of the most balanced characters out there. If there's anyone in codex DA who needs new rules it's Asmodai.

That is certainly how it comes across. But I agree Asmodai needs to be buffed up.

It's not that I think they are bad. I just think the chapter master of a chapter should be best while attached to units inside his own codex. Do you disagree with that notion? Genuinely curious.

That's why the things I suggested were so minor in nature. You can bring White Scars or IG as the allies to utilize the Skilled Rider shenanigans or immortal Conscript blob, if you really want anyway.

So you want to make rules that discourage turning to allies but giving more buffs to dark angel troops? Ok, I thought you were implying that they were underpowered.

In that case, I agree that they should be attached to their army, and I'll also agree to your changes for azrael. Unfortunately, they won't change the fact that he'll be primarily taken in a blob of guard. 50 4++ saves is just too sweet to pass up.

I don't think sammael needs to be changed though. I think he is best used in a Ravenwing command squad rather than with white scars. Besides, if you improved their jink saves, that would just discourage taking a dark shroud, in my opinion. How about an option to replace your elite slots with fast attack?

That'd be cool. If Sammael made it so Black Knights could take up elites (could, not simply DOES), I think that'd be very fitting for a fluffy Ravenwing list. Right now the Fast Attack slot is too crowded to bring like a true, pure Ravenwing list because while expensive, the flyers are still decent. I've personally had a lot of success with at least my Dark Talon.

I'd be down.

You're right about the 50 guard blob thing, though. (If I had the unit, I'd probably run it myself honestly just because I haven't seen anyone else give it a try and it seems hilarious if cheesy to me.) I think the only way they could "fix" that is to make it so the 4++ save only worked for a unit from Codex: Dark Angels.

You guys are also right about Asmodai. I just don't know how you "fix" him without a complete re-tooling of the character. Even if he was legitimately fearsome, he's still just a melee foot slogger in an army with guaranteed turn 1 dropping Terminators, or scouting Bikes that all have Hit and Run.

I had to exalt your post. You're the first person I've met who also thinks our flyers are good .

For Asmodai, I'd up,his points cost to around 170 or 180. I'd then change the blades of reason from a melee weapon to: Asmodai's attacks cause instant death. That way he'd be able to use his Crozius and still cause ID. I'd also give hime artificer armor and add a rule that unlocks vet squads as troops.

The Nephilim is pretty overcosted for what it does, but slapping the avenger mega bolter on it and sending it after troops, it tends to kill stuff. I actually really like the Dark Talon, though. It's the same points cost as 6 bikers and has the same boltgun firepower and while it loses the melee capabilities, it's got the cool as hell bomb and the Blind beam to make up for it. If they made the Rift Cannon ignores cover even if they didn't add any AP, it'd be in 100% of my lists. And when it's in range of the Banner of Dakkastation? Oh man, good times are had by all.

Anyway:
Having a guy that unlocks vets as troops would be cool. However, I don't think Asmodai fluff-wise would be the guy to do it. Despite being super deep in the Inner Circle, he's not much liked as I understand it. If they ever came out with rules for Sapphon, though, that'd totally fit him. (That's the current Grand Master of Chaplains, in case you didn't know.)

Maybe a way to rework the Blades of Reason would be to have it function as a power sword. He can choose to make an alternate attack where he only has a single attack with it, but it gains instant death. His Crozius would still be utilized the majority of the time. Power Mauls are better than Power Swords unless S and T are equal and the armor is exactly 3. As soon as you introduce an invulnerable save, Feel No Pain, or increase/decrease either the toughness or armor values of the model you're attacking, power mauls statistically do better.

I also think Artificer armor fits his fluff. It'd also help him stand out from your own home-brew Interrogator Chaplain.

I enjoy using the nephilim, because it i an amazing FMC killer. I can reliably take out a bloodthirster or fateweaver the turn it comes in. (As long as Fateweaver doesn't have the 2++, but usually the Grimoire is being used on a screamerstar anyway)

For Asmodai, giving him and the unit he's attached to rage would definitely make him playable. That way, he'd have a few more chances to cause instant death.

The problem with this is it's still just waxing the hypothetical, it actually doesn't impact the game. I can pretend I'm a millionaire, but at the end of the day, I'm still riding the bus to work.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
The problem with this is it's still just waxing the hypothetical, it actually doesn't impact the game. I can pretend I'm a millionaire, but at the end of the day, I'm still riding the bus to work.

"People discussing possible rules changes for proposed rules in a proposed rules forum? Man you guys suck and shouldn't post anymore."
--Dalymiddleboro

Feel free to add to the discussion rather than put your angry internet foot down. There is literally no point to the comment you posted, if you think about it.

@ironhammer2194: I think I could get behind that. Dark Angels are actually really solid in close combat depending on what you bring, so another named HQ guy that'd help along those lines would be great.

People disagree all the time, spouting the tired "Dark Angels are a shooty army" mantra, but they have lots of tools that help close combat. 1: We have better chaplains than anyone else, as they are essentially Captains with less weapon skill. 2: While we don't have any decent jump units or honor guard, company veterans are on par with Vanguard Vets because while you might not have as many guys with the special weapons, the overall unit will be less expensive. 3: The Stubborn/Fearless USRs on all our models are pretty great for close combat typically. 4: All Ravenwing units are designed to jet in and out of assault by utilizing Hit and Run. Black Knights are especially fearsome in close combat. (They also murder things dead in shooting, so hey best of both worlds.) 5: Terminators are rocking a S8 AP2 weapon in close combat rather than 2 S4 shots in ranged. Outside of the guy rocking the big gun in a squad, the rest of the unit is significantly deadlier in close combat. 6: Ezekiel is a force multiplier for your units in close combat. 7: The Revered Standard, Deathwing Company Banner, Standard of Retribution, AND Standard of Fortitude all significantly help melee combatants.

Blood Angels and Space Wolves are better at it than Dark Angels, but I did say "in 6E." I imagine 6E Space Wolves will be pretty fearsome.