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Today, two of my friends are about to play a game.

CSM vs Space Wolves.

We don't know how much dakka the SW player is bringing. We don't anticipate a thunderhawk.

So we tossed around the idea of fighting him in melee, which SW would usually have the advantage with.

Considering the CSM supplement due to veterans of the long war + artifacts.

Should we try CSM vanilla melee? Supplement melee? Or just try a shooty CSM army against him?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are also tossing around the idea of Slaneesh for the +1 int, so we either hit first or at the same time.

Don't try to outfight him with CSM, Grey Hunters are CSM on steroids. Juggerlords, on the other hand.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Don't try to outfight him with CSM, Grey Hunters are CSM on steroids. Juggerlords, on the other hand.

Well, we aren't playing / buying / using GHs...

So a vote towards shooty then? Point costs for melee make shooty seem the most viable.

If you don't know what the other guy is bringing you are effectively holding scissors and waiting for Keith rock or paper to yet be revieled. My advise is to just pick a direction. Go heavy assault or heavy shooting. Play to your own strengths. If you choose assault take as many dire casters and things that give negative ld to reduce overwatch and chances of him getting counter charge. Slannesh is always good for the better Init and the ever awesome doom siren.

If you choose shooty he does most of his damage at 24" or less. So either hang back and use longer range or make him pay for getting close with fiends and lots of your own special weapons.

load up on 3-4 helldrakes and most SW armies will just auto lose.

Yeah, CC is a strength of some SW units, but CC is THE strength of the entire CSM codex. Playing both to your absolute and relative strengths means doing CC in one of many, many forms or another.

Plus, it's really unlikely that the SW player is going to show up with ONLY grey hunters. More likely they'll have a bit of CC added to an otherwise shooty list. If you bring an army that's two juggerlords and the entire rest of the list is khorne berzerkers, odds are good that you'll be beating him in close combat.

CSM is actually one of the strongest melee armies currently but you really have to pay for what you get and land raiders are a must. Make sure to bring a couple of Heldrakes - they will dominate (obviously). Daemons are a great ally... Cheap troops and daemon princes. Fateweaver alone can take you over the top.

Don't use normal CSM, they are terrible and a victim to poorly thought out rules, if your going for melee, use fast elements such as bikers, Juggerlords, Spawn, Maulerfiends, and Daemon Princes. The occasional 5 terminators+Land Raider isn't bad either.

What's wrong with regular CSM? A power armor dude with a bolter and chainsword is stupid cheap, and there are plenty of ways to cheaply upgrade them to make them a little bit better.

I mean, at 1850 points, it's possible to field 120 MEq dudes with BP+CCW. That's not exactly going to be easy to face down in close combat, space wolves or otherwise.

Hm... Thousand sons? I'm not familiar with the SW codex but that AP3 should vaporize most MEQ. Add some Raptors or Khorne Berzerkers to intercept enemy charges and get cracking.

I'd field something along the lines of:

Predators for Long range (loadout either towards AP or AT)
Rubricae to soften up any incoming footsloggers
Raptors or Khorne Flakes to keep those footsloggers buisy that get too close to the Rubricae.
Cultists for points capping.

Havocs for remaining points and greater dakkadakkadakka

Please.... don't think its so easy.... don't *tears slide down face* Why Thousand Sons? Why must you still be so bad? (Ksons are hyper expensive. Whilst AP3 helps, they cost so much it doesn't matter much. Their maximum threat range is 30" and they are most optimal when there is no cover in the field). *goes over to cry. They can't even give Ahriman divination when he is bloody a king pen of divination*

I know they are expensive but if the enemy has a mele-oriented army or needs to get into the same range you do, they should be able to get their points back. Especially if you can get them behind cover, into buildings, that whole fortification thing (ADL, Fortress walls and whatnot).
They have a nice Invul save afair and should be quite playable as long as you can keep them shooting and out of CC.

My only wish for this guys would be the option for Heavy bolters but I guess you can't have everything.

Yeah, 1ksons aren't bad, they're just expensive. They're only bad if you can't make use of all of those obligatory upgrades.

But Ap3 heavy bolters would be sick. It would also give 1ksons something vaguely akin to the blastmaster.

That would be fun to try some time with opponent's consent. For every 10 models in the squad, one thousand son may replace his bolter with a heavy bolter (20 points).

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, 1ksons aren't bad, they're just expensive. They're only bad if you can't make use of all of those obligatory upgrades.

But Ap3 heavy bolters would be sick. It would also give 1ksons something vaguely akin to the blastmaster.

That would be fun to try some time with opponent's consent. For every 10 models in the squad, one thousand son may replace his bolter with a heavy bolter (20 points).

Actually they are pretty bad, when basic CSM can do their job because their job is very specific (They'll only do slightly better killing outside of cover).

a 1kson costs less than twice the amount of 2 naked CSM. For that, it's 50% better against Sv3+ in the open, and no worse in 5+ cover. And it's as durable as the CSM in 4+ cover, but it doesn't need the cover save, and is as durable against dedicated anti-MEq close combat (once again, for cheaper).

Except then 1ksons get fearless, which the CSM don't without spending more points on them and wasting an icon slot. And the 1ksons' sergeant comes with a force weapon, which can ID riptides and GUOs, and the like. And comes with vets for free.

You get a lot from 1ksons, and if you can use them correctly, they're a better value. If you're not able to see past their Sv3+, and think they're just regular CSM and use them as such, then yeah, you're going to be wasting a lot of points on upgrades you're not using.

That's not the 1ksons' fault, though.

I like the rubics. Its the sorcerer that sucks for me. You pay a lot for him and his 1 psychic power but all the tzeentch powers are terrible. The primaris is possibly the worst power in the game. The boon is only good for one thing, killing off your own characters. Doombolt would be ok but being an anti-armor power it conflicts with the squads purpose (shooting 3+ armor).

Boon would be nice if you could use it on the enemy... but as it is, Aspiring Sorcerers just cost too many points.

That doesn't stop me fielding them, of course.

I suppose the one scrap you get in favor here is that doombolt is a beam weapon. The more crowded your opponent is, the more hits you can get in.