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So i've been thinking (IT HURTS) about my list as it is now. I'm still taking my biker list from past topics I post (general deal, 4 squads of bikes) and after playing a game, I may have relized that my expensive unit I have been thinking about for a while may not be worth it. I only played two games with it so far though, so maybe I should stick with it?

The unit I'm taking now is around 600pts, and it consists of:
Allied Mantis Warrior Librarian lvl 2: 90pts
Allied Centurions w/ gravcannons and 1 missile launcher: 260pts
Land raider-250 pts

So far in the first game I played it wrecked a 10 man tactical squad turn one, an Iron clad turn 2, and it's Lucious pod turn 3, and then a tec marine on the final turn.
2nd game it was crippled right off the bat by two salamander land speeders and killed to one the sergeant and libby, and spent the game doing nothing else.

Maybe user error, but maybe I should use the points for other things? I have been tossing around the idea of bringing DA allies with black knights and a biker librarian, and then take a command squad in main detachment.

Or instead of command squad I bring two vindicators.

thoughts?

Here are my thoughts about grav cents in general.

Grav cents are the one unit I can find that is custom made for the Stormraven. The grav cents are slow. The Stormraven fixes this. The grav cents shoot, so deploying via grav chute doesn't matter. The dev cents only have to be within 24" of the target, so scatter doesn't matter. And grav cents have fat bases, so templates are mitigated, even though after DS you are base to base.

Dump the land raider, and just go with 3 grav cents in a Stormraven with hurricane bolters. It works well. They won't get benedictions the turn they drop, but who cares?

The only thing I worry about is that it takes two heavy support slots, so I get one less thunderfire cannon >.<

Isn't the Land Raider heavy support as well?

The land raider is, but Centurions are actually able to take it as a dedicated transport, A'La Terminators.

It's a hard choice then. The Stormraven functions as AA and can put the dev cents wherever you need them. You can still get 2 TFCs by allying to another chapter. My 1850 list only has one TFC.

I would run them without transport.
Mantis warriors have move through cover, so not slowed by terrain.
They have a 30" effective range. If you start them at the front of your deployment zone and in the middle of the board, it is more than enough.

I run them on foot and they do fine each game

plus you can add Khan and give them scout =D

Why don't you run white scars with a different chapter tactics as allies? This would allow the second TFC to be taken in the allies HS slot.

Otherwise the problem with the crusader unit is that the crusader will never be worthwhile in it's own right. I have also played around with a similar unit and 90% of the time I flatout the land raider to block LoS to the cents. It is an okay unit but I definitely prefer the stormraven deployed version.

While it is nice to have a source of prescience for them I usually find that I don't really need it. If I do decide I need it then I usually find that I can manage to keep a prescience libby biker or inquisitor within range of where the cents will drop.

Hmmmm alright, that gives a few ideas. Also I was thinking of allying in some IG instead, with three basilisks instead. Good idea?

IG can be a very good ally to SM. For an allies I would go with a manticore rather than basilisk. If you use forgeworld and don't mind shelling out the money the heavy artillery carriage earthshakers are incredible in units of 1-3, doesn't matter they are awesome.

Grav cents can operate without a transport, really. 30' threat range is almost alwayz enough. Besides, they're somewhat tough to withstand almost anything cept for a riptide spam. But if you spread them - that can mitigate ap2 cover-ignoring nonesence.

Hmm, i'll keep that in mind while I ask about a unit I wrote up there before.

Do you think that that black knights and the DA Librarian helping the WS command squad is a worthy idea? I get around 12 more bikes for my army and they do some neat stuff.

 koooaei wrote:
Grav cents can operate without a transport, really. 30' threat range is almost alwayz enough. Besides, they're somewhat tough to withstand almost anything cept for a riptide spam. But if you spread them - that can mitigate ap2 cover-ignoring nonesence.

Starcannons are very bad for them as well. So is plasma.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Do you think that that black knights and the DA Librarian helping the WS command squad is a worthy idea? I get around 12 more bikes for my army and they do some neat stuff.

Could be very worthwhile. The BK grenade launchers give you some nice debuffs which can be effectively used by your other assets. The prescience could make a grav command squad or grav cents that much nastier and toughen up the squad a bit with a PFG.

There is only one major problem. Bikes are only troops choices in a DA army which is the primary detachment with Sammy. Therefore you would have to take DA scouts or TAC squads. Both of which tend to be dead weight in a SM biker list as they do not get the best SM transports for those options; ie land speeder storm or stormraven. If you run forgeworld though you could shove them into a storm eagle or some such. Though the cost in money and points might unbalance a lower point army. I run something similar when I run DA with an Iron Hand CM w/ shield eternal to tank for my dakka banner command squad and a grav unit to go with Sammy. It has worked fairly well the times I ran it but I haven't gotten to play with it as much as I would like.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/562081.page

BTW Sammy leading a white scars unit is nasty. They get a 3+ cover save from moving due to skill rider USR being conferred. Take a shroud speeder and you get to 2+ cover with ease.