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As a Tyranid player, I often face medium sized units of Plague Marines (7 or 8) in Rhinos - usually with Plasma Guns and a Meltabomb. The games actually go pretty well for the Tyranids, but there's always the frustration of dealing with the Plague Marines.

In a recent game, one unit of Plague Marines fought off 30 Hormagaunts, a Mawloc, and a handful of Gargoyles...at the same time...and won handily.

On paper and in practice, the Plague Marines can fight just about anything I throw at them. They're good against hordes and monstrous creatures both with shooting and in combat. I can't ignore them because they're scoring. I can't alpha strike them because of their transport (and Nids can't really alpha strike anyway).

Does anyone else have this difficulty? Any suggestions on how to deal with them?

Kaboom a rhino. Dakka-dakka-dakka. Plague marines have poor firepower for the pointcost.

Plague marines are a nightmare match up, swarm them with little critters/ rending stealers or so

Carnifexes. Boom. With AGs a basic scytal carnifex on the charge goes at the same time as the PMs, ignores their armour and FNP (note, the hammer of wrath ignores FNP as well due to S9) and it infuritatingly hard to deal with by a low firepower nurgle army.

The Carnifexes will do remarkably well against PMs.

They've a still only a 3+ armour save and not full of power weapons, so a MC should kill them off with AP2 and wounding on 3s. Mass of saves otherwise, 20 devourer gants should force them to make about 30+ saves a turn. Killing a couple of rhinos should not be a problem - vector strike by an FMC, mass BL devourers, zoanthropes or hive guard. There is even some haywire in the codex now. It tends to be armour 12, 13 I have trouble with outside of CC not armour 10,11.

 ruminator wrote:
Mass of saves otherwise, 20 devourer gants should force them to make about 30+ saves a turn.

How?

20 Devourer Gants yields about 10 saves on average.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 ruminator wrote:
Mass of saves otherwise, 20 devourer gants should force them to make about 30+ saves a turn.

How?

20 Devourer Gants yields about 10 saves on average.

Was going to say. Perhaps against normal T4 SMs you might have luck...but T5 Plague Marines?

50% hit (30 hits), 33% wound (10 wounds).

Normal marines? 30 hits, 15 wounds...actually, seriously, where did Imotekh pull that figure from? IG perhaps?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Carnifexes. Boom. With AGs a basic scytal carnifex on the charge goes at the same time as the PMs, ignores their armour and FNP (note, the hammer of wrath ignores FNP as well due to S9) and it infuritatingly hard to deal with by a low firepower nurgle army.

The Carnifexes will do remarkably well against PMs.

s9 doesn't ignore their fnp since they're t5.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Carnifexes. Boom. With AGs a basic scytal carnifex on the charge goes at the same time as the PMs, ignores their armour and FNP (note, the hammer of wrath ignores FNP as well due to S9) and it infuritatingly hard to deal with by a low firepower nurgle army.

The Carnifexes will do remarkably well against PMs.

Actually, as sad as it is, Carnifexes can't really fight with Plague Marines. Strength 9 doesn't ignore their FnP. The Plague Marines will always strike first, hitting on 3's and wounding on 4's. It's not a great fight for the marines, but they will actually win...even assuming the Carnifexes charged and didn't take any wounds to shooting.

Don't forget that Plague Marines have poison weapons, so they wound any MC on a 4+.


Just tarpit them, they are expensive units and slowly chip away at them. If you send your heavy hitters after them, then the heavy hitters aren't hitting the soft spots of the army.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Don't forget that Plague Marines have poison weapons, so they wound any MC on a 4+.


Just tarpit them, they are expensive units and slowly chip away at them. If you send your heavy hitters after them, then the heavy hitters aren't hitting the soft spots of the army.

This, plaguebearers are expensive. Your enemy will have a low body count. For a squad of 7 Plague Marines with plasma guns (roughly 200pts), you can field 50 naked Termagaunts.

Siphen wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Carnifexes. Boom. With AGs a basic scytal carnifex on the charge goes at the same time as the PMs, ignores their armour and FNP (note, the hammer of wrath ignores FNP as well due to S9) and it infuritatingly hard to deal with by a low firepower nurgle army.

The Carnifexes will do remarkably well against PMs.

Actually, as sad as it is, Carnifexes can't really fight with Plague Marines. Strength 9 doesn't ignore their FnP. The Plague Marines will always strike first, hitting on 3's and wounding on 4's. It's not a great fight for the marines, but they will actually win...even assuming the Carnifexes charged and didn't take any wounds to shooting.

My bad. Was too used to every version of the Chaos codex bar the previous where they were 4(5) - I'd still say a brood of Adrenal Carnifexes has a very good chance as PMs are I3 as is an Adrenal Carnifex on a Charge - note defensive grenades only negate the bonus attack, not other bonuses (such as Furious Charge) and Shrouded gives them the save - they do not physically count as being in cover.. Sure, they have poisoned weapons but two things to consider.

Nurgle armies have incredibly short ranged firepower - you're generally looking at 24" at an extreme, 12" as the idea whereas Tyranid firepower starts pouring in at 18". The range of their firepower is not going to stop the MC broods hitting home. In addition the rest of the Tyranid army will have had a chance to soften choice targets up.

No unit is an island - this is true for Tyranids (and Eldar). As others have pointed out - tarpit them (with Hormagaunts) and then hammer in the Carnifexes. Defensive grenades can't be used if they were already engaged in combat. Likewise, regarding Carnifexes taking wounds from shooting? Well, that's something where Tyranids have to start saturation of the field. I am seriously considering running a Carnifex brood-Carnifex Brood-Something Else list for heavy support simply because they're cheap and help with threat saturation.

Also, the assumption that PMs will always strike first - nope. That's where your objective deployment starts to help. Put objectives in the open, in the midfield. Force them to advance and leave their barricades and cover and play to your strengths.

Bad typing - meant to be 30 gants and 20 saves, which is about right I think. Should check before posting. May be a little high, but hey if they are within 18" then chances are a lot of other stuff gets to shoot as well ... They do tend to only have about 7 in the squad so rattle about half off in shooting and the remainder are killable by most units in CC; either because the PMs go last due to low initiative and/or AP2 on MCs. I struggle so see why there is such a fear of MCs losing in combat due to their FNP. MCs are wounding on 3s or even 2s (carnifex) and all they get is a 5+ save. If you're that worried stick AG on one carnifex and get S10 automatically on the turn he charges. Auto kills on 2s, done. Don't want to risk your MCs, send almost any unit with toxin sacs into them, just as long as you've weakened them first from shooting.

Exocrine with it's 6 plasma shots. Again, wounds on 2s and only a 5+ save. Mawloc, wounds on 3s and 5+ save only and if they don't all die then it immediately goes again. Just make sure you kill the rhino turn one.

They really dont have very scary shooting. They just have bolters and 2 special weapons, with all these new shooty nid units i'd just chip em down with shooting.

Siphen wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Carnifexes. Boom. With AGs a basic scytal carnifex on the charge goes at the same time as the PMs, ignores their armour and FNP (note, the hammer of wrath ignores FNP as well due to S9) and it infuritatingly hard to deal with by a low firepower nurgle army.

The Carnifexes will do remarkably well against PMs.

Actually, as sad as it is, Carnifexes can't really fight with Plague Marines. Strength 9 doesn't ignore their FnP. The Plague Marines will always strike first, hitting on 3's and wounding on 4's. It's not a great fight for the marines, but they will actually win...even assuming the Carnifexes charged and didn't take any wounds to shooting.

Given the fact that the low number of attacks from Plague Marines coupled with the 3+ armor save of the fexes, and given that any CC fex will have adrenal glands for furious charge/fleet (s10 attacks), the one or two wounds that get dealt to the fexes wont kill them and the 4-8-12 attacks in return (accounting for blight grenades) will wound on 2's with no save, no feel no pain in the first round of cc. Paired with D3 hammer of wrath and a few lucky failed saves, 2 carnifexes can reliably take a chunk out of a 7-man plaguebearer squad and finish them off on the CSM Players' turn. The only consideration is that a wise CSM player will note this and not put the plague marines in a position to take on the carnifexes in the first place, unless they're already weakened.


So, as a tyranid player, what are your options? I'm a fan of busting rhinos with twin-linked devourers and then just pie-plating the marines with biovores and stranglethorns to force saving throws. After that if you're really in dire need to go for the kill throw some raveners with rending claws at them - their high # of base attacks is less inhibited by blight grenades, and rending is great. Failing that, a trygon or trygon prime can smash for 4 attacks (no charge bonus) that ignores armor and FNP. Nids have many options to take out plague marines - what you choose to use depends on your list and the state of the battlefield.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Nurgle armies have incredibly short ranged firepower - you're generally looking at 24" at an extreme, 12" as the idea whereas Tyranid firepower starts pouring in at 18". The range of their firepower is not going to stop the MC broods hitting home. In addition the rest of the Tyranid army will have had a chance to soften choice targets up.

Who said that?
Maybe Plague Marines usually have a 24" range...

But almost everyone plays Nurgle Obliterators (so you'd figure that also Nurgle lists do play them...) which have a interesting 54" threat range (48"+6" of movement).
Havocs with autocannon are another common choice with Nurgle lists, they have a 36" range.
With allied daemons you also have the Soul Grinder, again 36"-48" range
And there's also the Heldrake (but I figure that to Tyranids it's not such a huge threat).

Diablix wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Nurgle armies have incredibly short ranged firepower - you're generally looking at 24" at an extreme, 12" as the idea whereas Tyranid firepower starts pouring in at 18". The range of their firepower is not going to stop the MC broods hitting home. In addition the rest of the Tyranid army will have had a chance to soften choice targets up.

Who said that?
Maybe Plague Marines usually have a 24" range...

But almost everyone plays Nurgle Obliterators (so you'd figure that also Nurgle lists do play them...) which have a interesting 54" threat range (48"+6" of movement).
Havocs with autocannon are another common choice with Nurgle lists, they have a 36" range.
With allied daemons you also have the Soul Grinder, again 36"-48" range
And there's also the Heldrake (but I figure that to Tyranids it's not such a huge threat).

I forget that I am perhaps the only Nurgle player alive who actually goes by the background of the Death Guard and fields a nice, fluffy list that follows the doctrines Mortarion set.

Sadness.

Whenever I've played plague marines vs tyranids I always feel like they are Spartans against the hordes of Xerxes. I always camp them on an objective and all game they sit there and fight back tons of gribblies. It's pretty epic.

Plague marines are VERY hard for nids to kill. The main reason is their high toughness makes it tough for gribblies to bring them down. If something does go through failing a 3+ following by a 5+ makes it even harder. In 5th they were even more ridiculous against hordes due to the FnP being 4+. I still think the new FnP is all around better though.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Diablix wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Nurgle armies have incredibly short ranged firepower - you're generally looking at 24" at an extreme, 12" as the idea whereas Tyranid firepower starts pouring in at 18". The range of their firepower is not going to stop the MC broods hitting home. In addition the rest of the Tyranid army will have had a chance to soften choice targets up.

Who said that?
Maybe Plague Marines usually have a 24" range...

But almost everyone plays Nurgle Obliterators (so you'd figure that also Nurgle lists do play them...) which have a interesting 54" threat range (48"+6" of movement).
Havocs with autocannon are another common choice with Nurgle lists, they have a 36" range.
With allied daemons you also have the Soul Grinder, again 36"-48" range
And there's also the Heldrake (but I figure that to Tyranids it's not such a huge threat).

I forget that I am perhaps the only Nurgle player alive who actually goes by the background of the Death Guard and fields a nice, fluffy list that follows the doctrines Mortarion set.

Sadness.

I don't think Nurgle marines = Only Death guard , its probably a majority though.

But anyway , people will respect those types of lists more than cheese, especially if its well painted. Sure theres always some guy with 4 Helldrakes (Never fully painted) that sweeps the board but honestly screw em.

I need batteries for the camera. The army is mostly painted now and once I get some bases done - and the tracks of the Land Raider - then I can put them in the local club's display case to be pretty forevermore.

I'm new to the game so this may not be an overly sound strategy, but I've had a a lot of luck with giving one of my plague squads the job of dealing with guant swarms and equiping them with 2 flamers and sarge with combi flamers. The template takes big chunks out, and bolter fire thins numbers before they assault. Any thoughts?

Plague marine's ranged damage output is 2 times lower than of regular marines. And they're allready considered bad at it. Why just not avoid plague marines since they're damaging 2 times worse than bad? Noone forces you to EMIDIATELY kill everything you can.

3+ with a 5+ fnp is not that much better than just 3+. Its 22% chance to fail a save rather than 33%. Plague marines durability is more so in their T5. Throw some poison their way and its a losing scenario for the PM given their price. I don't encounter nids much but the thought of gaunts 1/3rd the price of my PM attacking them first with psn is enough to make me cringe

Carnifexes are your answer. Either with AG, or Crushing Claws if you're concerned about not getting the charge. They'll wound on 2s and ignore all their saves, and shouldn't be taking much damage in return. As others have said, popping the Rhino isn't difficult.

JubbJubbz wrote:
3+ with a 5+ fnp is not that much better than just 3+. Its 22% chance to fail a save rather than 33%. Plague marines durability is more so in their T5. Throw some poison their way and its a losing scenario for the PM given their price. I don't encounter nids much but the thought of gaunts 1/3rd the price of my PM attacking them first with psn is enough to make me cringe

I'd just run up to it with poison gaunts and an attached Prime, goodnight.

JubbJubbz wrote:
3+ with a 5+ fnp is not that much better than just 3+. Its 22% chance to fail a save rather than 33%. Plague marines durability is more so in their T5. Throw some poison their way and its a losing scenario for the PM given their price. I don't encounter nids much but the thought of gaunts 1/3rd the price of my PM attacking them first with psn is enough to make me cringe

They also have access to defensive grenades and have poisoned CCW for themselves.
Nobody said they are invincible, however without the proper tools (e.g: poisoned weapons, high number of S7 shots, ignore cover AP3 weapons) they can be pretty tough.

Dakka Fex (2 twinlinked devourers) will make short work of plague marines. Remember that if you wreck/explode a rhino then the plague marines can't charge you next turn so if you want you can sit there and get another free round of shooting at them (especially if you scored a crew stunned/shaken when you were popping the vehicle since the guys that come out cannot fire - or can only snap shoot)

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Carnifexes. Boom. With AGs a basic scytal carnifex on the charge goes at the same time as the PMs, ignores their armour and FNP (note, the hammer of wrath ignores FNP as well due to S9) and it infuritatingly hard to deal with by a low firepower nurgle army.

The Carnifexes will do remarkably well against PMs.

Wrong on every count. S9 doesn't do anything to FNP on a T5 model. Yes you can insta-gib anything with normal furious charge attacks, but I believe you still go second against PM with their poison attacks.

Boneswords, rending claws, or just straight up numbers. Even if you can't kill them, you can tarpit for while. A Mawloc could do some damage too with its deepstrike.

General Duf wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Carnifexes. Boom. With AGs a basic scytal carnifex on the charge goes at the same time as the PMs, ignores their armour and FNP (note, the hammer of wrath ignores FNP as well due to S9) and it infuritatingly hard to deal with by a low firepower nurgle army.

The Carnifexes will do remarkably well against PMs.

Wrong on every count. S9 doesn't do anything to FNP on a T5 model. Yes you can insta-gib anything with normal furious charge attacks, but I believe you still go second against PM with their poison attacks.

Boneswords, rending claws, or just straight up numbers. Even if you can't kill them, you can tarpit for while. A Mawloc could do some damage too with its deepstrike.

First part - read up about 4-5 posts. Already commented and explained that my mind still was hanging onto the old T4(5) rules from 5th. Go figure. Next time you decide to go into FULL ON ARROGANCE mode try to read the thread first.

Second part - Carnifexes got buffed to I2 which means they at the very least will strike before the inevitable power fists or power axes - bear in mind that Plague Marines cannot get poisoned power weapons and you still have a 3+ save on a Carnifex. Generally if you can strike before the power fist you're golden. Sure, you have to whether a storm. Wait, no, this unit at most is likely to have 12 poisoned attacks at full strength (squads of 7 remember - OP did state that iirc) - that is assuming they don't take any casualties from the HoW hits (D3 per carnifex remember - so averaging out to 6 total, autohits, I10 - 5 wounds average...). They'll hit on 2/3rds....so that's 8 hits. Half will wound. So, 4 wounds. You will save 2/3rds of those...so not enough to bring down a Carnifex. In return the scytal 'fexes will deliver 12 attacks of their own, hitting with 6 on average and killing outright for 5.

If you want feel free to ramp up the points of the 'fexes a bit and put twin devourers. You lose 3 of those attacks but I reckon the previous turn or two's worth of 36 twin-linked S6 shots will have made even more of a dent than the PMs return fire.

Plague Marines with their poisoned attacks are not that terrifying in combat. They only get 2 attacks a piece unless they're the ones that charge and even then they're surprisingly lacklustre. The fact that the champion's weapons are all either next to useless or slower than a Carnifex doesn't help them either - S4 power weapon against T6? Enjoy that. S6 AP4 against a 3+ save? Enjoy that. Or I1 and S5/S8? Enjoy that.

The other thing to consider is using things in tandem with eachother. Carnifexes will never be on their own, nor will PMs. But I can tell you one thing - for their costs PMs will always be hideously outnumbered and the 'nids bring a far greater number of psykers to the table as well as a far greater MC threat than a single brood of fexes. Even if each and every PM squad targets a specific MC threat? They still have all the problems of the infantry to deal with. For their cost a squad of PMs can be tarpitted in a Hormagaunt brood or 2 and while tied up THEN the Carnifexes can come in to mop them up.

3 dakkafexes with adrenal glands vs 10 plague marines in a rhino with 2 plasmaguns and extra armour on the rhino

36 shots = 27 hits = 4.5 penetrating hits = ~2 crew stunned or crew shaken
Plague marines snap shooting
16 bolters + 4 plasma = 2 bolter hits + 1 plasma hit = 1 wound off a carnifex

Carnifexes shoot plague marines = 27 hits = 18 wounds = 4 dead plague marines *6 failed saves, 2 passed FNP
6 plague marines overwatch = 1 wound off a carnifex
Carnifexes charge = 4.5 hammer of wrath hits at S10 (Furious Charge) = 1 dead plague marine
5 surviving plague marines attack = 11 attacks = 4 wounds = first dead carnifex
2 surviving carnifexes attack = 6 attacks = 3 hits, 3 wounds and ~2 surviving plague marines

You can see how it goes from there.

The critical things to remember are:
1. if you score a crew shaken on a rhino then the passengers (even when they jump out can only snap shoot).
2. if you score a crew stunned on a rhino then the passengers can't fire at all.
3. the plague marines can't charge after thier rhino get's blown up.

Dakka fexes FTW.

Now if they didn't come in a rhino then it might be a different story (it would be a ranged battle for a start)