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Hey everybody, I decided to make a thread for every thing grey knights, like a mini-forum thing, my eventual hope is that one day I will be able to post all of he general opinions, tactics, fluff stuff we discuss here on my own website, with a link to this thread, with legoburner's permission of course.the first topic is this:
Terminators and force falchions, whats up with that? The point of duel-wielding is to be faster, but they're terminators.

The point of dual wielding is not "to be faster".

The idea of dual wielding is to give a little extra power to your off hand for attacks of opportunity. All dual-wielding combat styles effectively use the primary hand for attack, and the off-hand for defence and parrying. In effect, it's an evolution of sword-and-shield combat for the time when shields were made useless because of advances in ranged weapons (from throwing spears, to longbows, to crossbows, to guns). You forgo the long-ranged defence of the shield in favour of a more deadly off-hand when you get into melee.

Not that most shields aren't also good offensively, but they're not especially lethal - good for setting up attacks from your main weapon, or for injuring, but not so good for killing.

That said, Terminators are wearing Terminator armour, so close combat really isn't their forte - the armour just isn't mobile enough. That's why the GK originally favoured halberds. A halberd gives you the range to bring your power to bear before the enemy gets into infighting range where mobility and dexterity is key.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That's why the GK originally favoured halberds. A halberd gives you the range to bring your power to bear before the enemy gets into infighting range where mobility and dexterity is key.

Though this may partially explain why all GKs used to be S6, it still doesn't make complete sense.

Miko, I'm going to have to disagree slightly.

While you're right about the way shields became obsolete, a shield was never a non-deadly offhand. Many shields carried spikes and there is evidence to suggest that shields were even designed with an edge. Larger shields like the scutum (the roman shield) could usually be used to push an enemy off you and give you some distance between your opponent and yourself.

Shields were still used in the gunpowder age, however by that time they offered no defence against ranged weapons. They were usually a small shield a little larger than your hand that would be used to directly parry a blow - the way you'd naturally parry a knife with your bare hand, only with a piece of thick metal in the way. The shields tended to have pointed bosses so you could still punch your opponent for an attack of opportunity.

But your analysis of the GK weaponry is pretty accurate. Shrouded, Dual-wielding weaponry has been quite sensationalised by television and anime, it's not easy and it certainly does not make you fight faster. IF anything, it makes it harder to fight in the natural way one would try to fight.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Miko, I'm going to have to disagree slightly.

While you're right about the way shields became obsolete, a shield was never a non-deadly offhand. Many shields carried spikes and there is evidence to suggest that shields were even designed with an edge. Larger shields like the scutum (the roman shield) could usually be used to push an enemy off you and give you some distance between your opponent and yourself.

Shields were still used in the gunpowder age, however by that time they offered no defence against ranged weapons. They were usually a small shield a little larger than your hand that would be used to directly parry a blow - the way you'd naturally parry a knife with your bare hand, only with a piece of thick metal in the way. The shields tended to have pointed bosses so you could still punch your opponent for an attack of opportunity.

But your analysis of the GK weaponry is pretty accurate. Shrouded, Dual-wielding weaponry has been quite sensationalised by television and anime, it's not easy and it certainly does not make you fight faster. IF anything, it makes it harder to fight in the natural way one would try to fight.

The only duel wielding in history I know of that was widely used was a sword and knife combo used by some fighters.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Miko, I'm going to have to disagree slightly.

While you're right about the way shields became obsolete, a shield was never a non-deadly offhand. Many shields carried spikes and there is evidence to suggest that shields were even designed with an edge. Larger shields like the scutum (the roman shield) could usually be used to push an enemy off you and give you some distance between your opponent and yourself.

Shields were still used in the gunpowder age, however by that time they offered no defence against ranged weapons. They were usually a small shield a little larger than your hand that would be used to directly parry a blow - the way you'd naturally parry a knife with your bare hand, only with a piece of thick metal in the way. The shields tended to have pointed bosses so you could still punch your opponent for an attack of opportunity.

But your analysis of the GK weaponry is pretty accurate. Shrouded, Dual-wielding weaponry has been quite sensationalised by television and anime, it's not easy and it certainly does not make you fight faster. IF anything, it makes it harder to fight in the natural way one would try to fight.

The only duel wielding in history I know of that was widely used was a sword and knife combo used by some fighters.

Samurai actually commonly used two swords.

As swords became a mark of status there (you could literally be killed for carrying a sword if you were not a samurai) eventual the trend for multiple swords became a thing and a fighting style emerged with it. But in this case, the off hand sword was also usually shorter, not dagger esque, but shorter than your regular sword arm.

WHen thinking of knights and armor its important to realize that for all intensive purposes, their swords didn't just shear through steel, swords were more of a glorified bat than anything, designed to cut an unarmoured foe but really intended to batter an opponent until you get them in a position where you could finish them off by sliding the sword between armor plates or more commonly by using your dagger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GK discussion thread...becomes a history of fighting thread.

Miyamato Musashi
He was the first to use, and effectively use the katana and wakazashi. The wakazashi was more of a short sword than a knife, but it was used primarily as a defensive blade, and for quick counters.

But then in France you had the art of fencing with a small off-hand blade. Again this was used mostly to parry.

I approve of a GK thread

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Miko, I'm going to have to disagree slightly.

While you're right about the way shields became obsolete, a shield was never a non-deadly offhand. Many shields carried spikes and there is evidence to suggest that shields were even designed with an edge. Larger shields like the scutum (the roman shield) could usually be used to push an enemy off you and give you some distance between your opponent and yourself.

Shields were still used in the gunpowder age, however by that time they offered no defence against ranged weapons. They were usually a small shield a little larger than your hand that would be used to directly parry a blow - the way you'd naturally parry a knife with your bare hand, only with a piece of thick metal in the way. The shields tended to have pointed bosses so you could still punch your opponent for an attack of opportunity.

But your analysis of the GK weaponry is pretty accurate. Shrouded, Dual-wielding weaponry has been quite sensationalised by television and anime, it's not easy and it certainly does not make you fight faster. IF anything, it makes it harder to fight in the natural way one would try to fight.

Ah, you're not disagreeing with me, I just wasn't clear. I never meant to imply that a shield wasn't a weapon, I just meant that a shield was relatively hard to actually kill with, compared to a dagger or other blade. Trust me, I've done enough shield bashing to know.

I'm aware of the bouclier, I just don't generally think of them as shields - I know that's what they're generally considered to be, but I can't help but think of them as being more in line with a main gauche.

The idea that the Japanese commonly dual wielded is a fallacy. A single school that sought to emulate Musashi taught fighting with katana and wakizashi. Most people thought that they were idiots - a samurai's katana is his soul, and to wield a second blade is to disrespect his soul by saying it can't protect him. The wakizashi's job is to protect the soul when it can't be wielded - in close quarters, for example, or indoors. The katana was traditionally wielded two-handed.

It's also not entirely accurate to say that it was legal to kill a non-samurai for carrying a katana. It was traditionally legal for a samurai to kill a non-samurai for any reason whatsoever - including 'to test the sharpness of my sword'. The common perception that carrying a sword when not a samurai was a crime rises from the fact that a samurai would often take a peasant or nonperson (two different things) carrying a samurai's blade as a personal insult and strike that person down on the spot for it.

ductvader wrote:Though this may partially explain why all GKs used to be S6, it still doesn't make complete sense.

I'm not sure what doesn't make sense - the whole point of a halberd (or a glaive, or a naginata, or a guisarme, or a glaive-guisarme, or a guisarme-glaive, or a glaive-guisarme-guisarme, or... oh, you get the point) is to gain extra reach by putting your sword or axe on the end of a stick so you can kill the other guy before he's in range to kill you. That's why the +2 initiative on the NMH is actually quite fluffy (far fluffier than the normal poleaxe-makes-you-I1).

 Furyou Miko wrote:

ductvader wrote:Though this may partially explain why all GKs used to be S6, it still doesn't make complete sense.

I'm not sure what doesn't make sense - the whole point of a halberd (or a glaive, or a naginata, or a guisarme, or a glaive-guisarme, or a guisarme-glaive, or a glaive-guisarme-guisarme, or... oh, you get the point) is to gain extra reach by putting your sword or axe on the end of a stick so you can kill the other guy before he's in range to kill you. That's why the +2 initiative on the NMH is actually quite fluffy (far fluffier than the normal poleaxe-makes-you-I1).

S6...Daemonhunters were all Strength 6 because of their Halberd.

Well, +2 strength for a two-handed weapon is kind of standard in some circles. In modern terms, it would match with the Relic Blade, Blade of Admonition and Warscythe.

At the time, I always thought of it as being like two-handed weapons doubling damage to strength in DnD and similar games.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, +2 strength for a two-handed weapon is kind of standard in some circles. In modern terms, it would match with the Relic Blade, Blade of Admonition and Warscythe.

At the time, I always thought of it as being like two-handed weapons doubling damage to strength in DnD and similar games.

Tau honor blade as well.

I love grey knights, i'm happy tau took away the top tier spot from them so i can start a army with out hearing "cheese" all the time.

Give "The Book of Five Rings" a read.

Two swords over sword and shield is just more offensive options; with an expert, kill count vastly increases.

As it says in the book: more tools in the tool chest for the craft.

I happen to like that they have a variety of weapons to choose from, it shows they take their warfare seriously.

If a long wooden stick sharpened to a point is the ideal weapon for the job, why get hung up on any one tool?

I do agree in game terms they went a little against convention of each weapon has a different stat it changes rather than a straight-up +2S for a two-handed weapon.

I sincerely doubt that Musashi mentioned shields in his book.

The closest thing the Japanese had is sadoregami - the shield-like shoulder pads you see on typical 'samurai armour'.

 Rotary wrote:
I love grey knights, i'm happy tau took away the top tier spot from them so i can start a army with out hearing "cheese" all the time.

My tau army still feels the pain from before the codex thought. Stupid plasma siphon that affects all my pulse and burst weapons *mutter mutter*.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, +2 strength for a two-handed weapon is kind of standard in some circles. In modern terms, it would match with the Relic Blade, Blade of Admonition and Warscythe.

At the time, I always thought of it as being like two-handed weapons doubling damage to strength in DnD and similar games.

Tau honor blade as well.

And Big Choppa!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I love grey knights, i'm happy tau took away the top tier spot from them so i can start a army with out hearing "cheese" all the time.

My tau army still feels the pain from before the codex thought. Stupid plasma siphon that affects all my pulse and burst weapons *mutter mutter*.

Just the gk one...the inquisition one doesn't!

Congratulations shrouded lord, your thread went off-rails within just a couple of posts due to your own question! Ha ha!

I approve of this thread, and will check back often to see the hate grow.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I love grey knights, i'm happy tau took away the top tier spot from them so i can start a army with out hearing "cheese" all the time.

My tau army still feels the pain from before the codex thought. Stupid plasma siphon that affects all my pulse and burst weapons *mutter mutter*.

Funnily enough, Tau were considered the worst Codex in 5th, but they were also considered the Codex with the greatest advantage vs GK.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I love grey knights, i'm happy tau took away the top tier spot from them so i can start a army with out hearing "cheese" all the time.

My tau army still feels the pain from before the codex thought. Stupid plasma siphon that affects all my pulse and burst weapons *mutter mutter*.

Funnily enough, Tau were considered the worst Codex in 5th, but they were also considered the Codex with the greatest advantage vs GK.

Well high strength weaponry and easy access to plasma from crisis suits (and in my case plasma cannons from FW and XV9s with fusion cascades). I still hate whoever *cough*MattWard*unconvinceingcough* wrote that FAQ (anything descirbed as using plasma, really GW).


Just off the top of my head that includes
Plasma Pistols
Plasma Guns
Plasma Cannons
Tau Plasma Cannons
Plasma Rifles
Pulse Rifles
Pulse Carbines
Pulse Submution Rifles
Pulse Submution Cannons
Plasma Grenades
Plasma Missiles

And that's barley the beginning.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I sincerely doubt that Musashi mentioned shields in his book.

The closest thing the Japanese had is sadoregami - the shield-like shoulder pads you see on typical 'samurai armour'.

Yup. Lammellar armour was light and was very good at protecting arrows, especially with silk underneath it. they had no need for shields, since shields were not pertinent in close combat, and would definitely jam their motions up a bit.

You don't really wield a shield, you more hold it in place and hope the force doesn't break your arm. That doesn't suit the blade.

Does anyone know if ashigaru could actually get loanswords, like they can in SII:TW? I mean, they were arming peasants anyway, so I don't imagine it's that much of a stretch.

I believe shields goes against the Japanese love affair with the Offensive Attack from ancient periods up to WWII.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I love grey knights, i'm happy tau took away the top tier spot from them so i can start a army with out hearing "cheese" all the time.

My tau army still feels the pain from before the codex thought. Stupid plasma siphon that affects all my pulse and burst weapons *mutter mutter*.

Funnily enough, Tau were considered the worst Codex in 5th, but they were also considered the Codex with the greatest advantage vs GK.

Well high strength weaponry and easy access to plasma from crisis suits (and in my case plasma cannons from FW and XV9s with fusion cascades). I still hate whoever *cough*MattWard*unconvinceingcough* wrote that FAQ (anything descirbed as using plasma, really GW).


Just off the top of my head that includes
Plasma Pistols
Plasma Guns
Plasma Cannons
Tau Plasma Cannons
Plasma Rifles
Pulse Rifles
Pulse Carbines
Pulse Submution Rifles
Pulse Submution Cannons
Plasma Grenades
Plasma Missiles

And that's barley the beginning.

So what you're saying is that weapons that start with P are over Powered?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I love grey knights, i'm happy tau took away the top tier spot from them so i can start a army with out hearing "cheese" all the time.

My tau army still feels the pain from before the codex thought. Stupid plasma siphon that affects all my pulse and burst weapons *mutter mutter*.

Funnily enough, Tau were considered the worst Codex in 5th, but they were also considered the Codex with the greatest advantage vs GK.

Well high strength weaponry and easy access to plasma from crisis suits (and in my case plasma cannons from FW and XV9s with fusion cascades). I still hate whoever *cough*MattWard*unconvinceingcough* wrote that FAQ (anything descirbed as using plasma, really GW).


Just off the top of my head that includes
Plasma Pistols
Plasma Guns
Plasma Cannons
Tau Plasma Cannons
Plasma Rifles
Pulse Rifles
Pulse Carbines
Pulse Submution Rifles
Pulse Submution Cannons
Plasma Grenades
Plasma Missiles

And that's barley the beginning.

So what you're saying is that weapons that start with P are over Powered?

Nerf Psilencers!

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I love grey knights, i'm happy tau took away the top tier spot from them so i can start a army with out hearing "cheese" all the time.

My tau army still feels the pain from before the codex thought. Stupid plasma siphon that affects all my pulse and burst weapons *mutter mutter*.

Funnily enough, Tau were considered the worst Codex in 5th, but they were also considered the Codex with the greatest advantage vs GK.

Well high strength weaponry and easy access to plasma from crisis suits (and in my case plasma cannons from FW and XV9s with fusion cascades). I still hate whoever *cough*MattWard*unconvinceingcough* wrote that FAQ (anything descirbed as using plasma, really GW).


Just off the top of my head that includes
Plasma Pistols
Plasma Guns
Plasma Cannons
Tau Plasma Cannons
Plasma Rifles
Pulse Rifles
Pulse Carbines
Pulse Submution Rifles
Pulse Submution Cannons
Plasma Grenades
Plasma Missiles

And that's barley the beginning.

So what you're saying is that weapons that start with P are over Powered?

Nerf Psilencers!

It's a short list made in 30 seconds of weapons that are describes as using plasma.

It is a lot o ps though.

At least in Europe, I've always wondered why would anyone dual wield, ever.

Before plate armor, you needed a shield or projectile weapon would generally kill you dead.

After plate armor was invented, well... you needed both hands to defeat plate armor and projectiles were a lot less dangerous, till the invention of proper gunpowder weapons anyways.

 Bobthehero wrote:
At least in Europe, I've always wondered why would anyone dual wield, ever.

Before plate armor, you needed a shield or projectile weapon would generally kill you dead.

After plate armor was invented, well... you needed both hands to defeat plate armor and projectiles were a lot less dangerous, till the invention of proper gunpowder weapons anyways.

Well most people didn't have plate armour, and plate armour is heavy. It vastly restricts you movement, and all the people have to do is push you down and you stay down. duel wielding a sword an knife is fine because (assuming 1 handed sword) you are not using that hand in any case and then if someone blocks your sword, you get them with the knife.

Can we get the history of sword fighting out of the gk thread now?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

and plate armour is heavy. It vastly restricts you movement, and all the people have to do is push you down and you stay down.

That's actually pretty false, custom fitted plate armor (which is what people had, back before plate could be massed produced) restricted you only a little and wasn't all that heavy, you could stand up in plate armor and only do it a bit slower than normal.