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Hi guys,
I'm considering getting a small Eldar force (less than 1000 pts) just to use at my local gaming group, and am wondering what the main difference is between
Guardians and avengers, so I can choose which to buy.
Is it wargear options or statline line or both?

Thanks,
Tod

Both. Avengers have slightly better stats and a longer ranged gun, but don't get heavy weapons.

Guardians in Wave Serpents, more scoring bodies and more fire power when you disembark. DA if you are running them foot, take an Exarch with shimmershield/PW for a save Vs everything. This is a great unit, really fun with run then shoot or shoot then run. DA also if you are strapped for points, 5 DA are cheaper then 10 Guardians if all you want is a Wave Serpent Tax.

 insaniak wrote:
Both. Avengers have slightly better stats and a longer ranged gun, but don't get heavy weapons.

Thanks,
If you don't mind me asking, which stats are better, and by how much?

Im gonna put my theory out there, gardians are support and Dire Avengers are for holding ground. I dont use guardians. But dire avengers are great for sitting in a spot and when the enemy get close you shoot and run away until the enemy catches up to you and overwatch plus strike first (mostly) with an extra attack because of counter attack rule and survive ish with a 5+ invulnerable save.

I love my foot dire avengers and I run 30 in my standard force.

My friend runs all guardians in his army but his army is designed around long range support shooting and psycic buffs so he has reapers and so forth to support his.

So in my opinion, guardians are a support choice, dire avengers are a tactical/elite annoyance force.

But dire avengers cost a heap of money if you buy new.

Dire avengers are aspect warriors. They have better gear (18" range gun vs 12" and 4+ save), they have counter attack, and they can be taken in smaller squads (minimu 5 vs 10).

Either option can work in foot or mech. In a mech list 10 guardians works nicely for a bit of punch when you get out or 5 dire avengers for getting more serpents into your list. In a foot list a unit of 10 dire avengers has enough range and speed to usually contribute in a valuable way. On foot a unit of 10 guardians with a heavy weapon can do some good but needs psycher support to keep them in the fight or they need to be kept in the back field. A unit of 20 guardians with heavy weapons can move forward and will usually do something worthwhile. You will need to design the unit to fit your list and play style.

So it sounds like they're both good units, so would you recommend the Eldar battleforce as a good starting point?

 Tod wrote:
So it sounds like they're both good units, so would you recommend the Eldar battleforce as a good starting point?

Id say yes, the tank is good, the guardians can support avengers and the vyper can go tank hunting. Just get an HQ of your choice then expand from there.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Tod wrote:
So it sounds like they're both good units, so would you recommend the Eldar battleforce as a good starting point?

Id say yes, the tank is good, the guardians can support avengers and the vyper can go tank hunting. Just get an HQ of your choice then expand from there.

So far, I'm thinking of buying the battleforce, a farseer, the codex and a box of jetbikes.
Is that a decent army and would you say it's around 600-ish points?

Thanks a ton,
Tod

No codex nearby and the only unit I use out of that selection is dire avengers, but that would be a good army.

Fast and all your units have something to support it.

Not sure on points though sorry.

The battleforce is not a bad deal. You basically get a free vyper.

I would get a farseer with it so you have an HQ. That should be ~600 pts with proper upgrades. If you want jetbikes I would convert one to be a farseer. You will need an HQ.Otherwise take the extra 20 usd and think about getting an Eldar Support Weapon (shadow weaver preferred).

Welcome to the craftworld. Remember to enjoy yourself the prescribed amount for your path.

Welcome to the [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express yourself. - Alpharius] army in 40k.

A vyper you will never use , so it ain't much of a gain .

IMO the best way to start eldar is to buy 2x3 jetbikers ,a seer and two wave serpents one for a firedragon and the other for DA unit. all of those will be used in every eldar army no matter what points are played.

Makumba wrote:
A vyper you will never use , so it ain't much of a gain .

IMO the best way to start eldar is to buy 2x3 jetbikers ,a seer and two wave serpents one for a firedragon and the other for DA unit. all of those will be used in every eldar army no matter what points are played.

Dont listen to this guy. I have never used jet bikes and so forth. Remember you have to like the units to use them. The army you got set out is great.

Put the farseer with the guardians and walk them forward, put the dire avengers with the serpent and use as required, and have the 3 jet bikes go out to steal an objective while the vyper supports them or hunts down vehicles. Youw will do well. As another suggestion, (if you have the cash) a unit of wraith guard will complement this army or dark reapers. Both will add a punch, but wraith will be at the front or if you go reapers they will be at the back.

In the end its up to you but dont listen to makumuba or whatever.

Am not a guy that is one thing and what is there not to like in jetbikes , firedragons or DA or wave serpents ?

Makumba's advice is sound. All of these are good options, with no junk. Unless you plan on using the Iyanden supplement, this is a more effective use of your cash than the battle box. If you're a little strapped for cash, drop one Wave Serpent and the Dire Avengers and you still have a decent force. A Guardian squad would be a viable alternative to the Dire Avengers as well.

Im not saying he shouldnt, im just saying he doesnt "Have to take" the units suggested. His army will do well with those options. More importantly his force is a great starter force.

OP if you want to power game and take units simply because they are the best go ahead, but the eldar codex is very powerful all round so dont feel pressured to take "auto includes" that many players will say you need.

In short, your force will be a great starting point and once you get a feel for eldar you will know where to expand from there. With this force you get a bit of everything and your men are pretty versatile, you have the tools to kill everything except aircraft but at that size it shouldnt matter.

Best of luck.

I play 40 DA's in my normal 2000 point lists. I play them with a exarch w/shimmer shield. The 5+ invul has kept them alive through some serious go arounds, In the day of ignore cover I find it invaluable. It doesn't force me to stick to cover the whole game. I can actually take objectives and hold them.
I have found that counter attack always keeps them viable against most other troop/denial units. They are expensive but I prefer them as troop units.
You don't have to take jet bikes. They are good except against tau and eldar funny enough. I hate the jetbike model so I refuse to own one until a viable GW model is produced. Also you cannot take a Wave Serpent for them!!
That's where I find DA shine most of all. WS protects them until its go time then they pour out light up some poor bastard and claim the objective.
Guardians are solid but in a defensive way I have found. They can hold backfield objectives great and provide solid fire support. They struggle taking objectives though. I find the T3 5+ LD8 a real hindrance for aggressive play.

 lobbywatson wrote:
I play 40 DA's in my normal 2000 point lists. I play them with a exarch w/shimmer shield. The 5+ invul has kept them alive through some serious go arounds, In the day of ignore cover I find it invaluable. It doesn't force me to stick to cover the whole game. I can actually take objectives and hold them.
I have found that counter attack always keeps them viable against most other troop/denial units. They are expensive but I prefer them as troop units.
You don't have to take jet bikes. They are good except against tau and eldar funny enough. I hate the jetbike model so I refuse to own one until a viable GW model is produced. Also you cannot take a Wave Serpent for them!!
That's where I find DA shine most of all. WS protects them until its go time then they pour out light up some poor bastard and claim the objective.
Guardians are solid but in a defensive way I have found. They can hold backfield objectives great and provide solid fire support. They struggle taking objectives though. I find the T3 5+ LD8 a real hindrance for aggressive play.

Glad somebody agees! ( I dont use wave serpents though, but close enough)

 lobbywatson wrote:
I play 40 DA's in my normal 2000 point lists. I play them with a exarch w/shimmer shield. The 5+ invul has kept them alive through some serious go arounds, In the day of ignore cover I find it invaluable. It doesn't force me to stick to cover the whole game. I can actually take objectives and hold them.
I have found that counter attack always keeps them viable against most other troop/denial units. They are expensive but I prefer them as troop units.
You don't have to take jet bikes. They are good except against tau and eldar funny enough. I hate the jetbike model so I refuse to own one until a viable GW model is produced. Also you cannot take a Wave Serpent for them!!
That's where I find DA shine most of all. WS protects them until its go time then they pour out light up some poor bastard and claim the objective.
Guardians are solid but in a defensive way I have found. They can hold backfield objectives great and provide solid fire support. They struggle taking objectives though. I find the T3 5+ LD8 a real hindrance for aggressive play.

I actually tend to dump 30 some guardians in my enemy's face turn 4 or 5 whilst my rangers hold the backfield...that much blade storm is usually enough to clear whatever is left by that turn.

Dropping 15 dire avengers feels a lot less scary to me...though I haven't done it myself.

 ductvader wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
I play 40 DA's in my normal 2000 point lists. I play them with a exarch w/shimmer shield. The 5+ invul has kept them alive through some serious go arounds, In the day of ignore cover I find it invaluable. It doesn't force me to stick to cover the whole game. I can actually take objectives and hold them.
I have found that counter attack always keeps them viable against most other troop/denial units. They are expensive but I prefer them as troop units.
You don't have to take jet bikes. They are good except against tau and eldar funny enough. I hate the jetbike model so I refuse to own one until a viable GW model is produced. Also you cannot take a Wave Serpent for them!!
That's where I find DA shine most of all. WS protects them until its go time then they pour out light up some poor bastard and claim the objective.
Guardians are solid but in a defensive way I have found. They can hold backfield objectives great and provide solid fire support. They struggle taking objectives though. I find the T3 5+ LD8 a real hindrance for aggressive play.

I actually tend to dump 30 some guardians in my enemy's face turn 4 or 5 whilst my rangers hold the backfield...that much blade storm is usually enough to clear whatever is left by that turn.

Dropping 15 dire avengers feels a lot less scary to me...though I haven't done it myself.

I see what your saying. What I've found with DA is I don't have to wait till turn 4 to show them the light of day. They can last far longer due to the 4+/5+. That's why I like them. I can be aggressive with them. Starting turn 2. I have found the extra 6" is really a night and day difference (that's what she said).
That's my take on it. Guardians by no means are bad. Very good unit. Its kind of a good problem to have isn't it. 3 great troop choices. Go Eldar!!

As long as you've avoided banshees...it's hard to make a truly bad list with this book.

Which is a good and a bad thing.

I always tell people that it comes down to preference...personally...I like 7 dire avengers as well...costs 1 pt more than 10 guardians...loses less shots than with 5...and is more survivable.

But I am running dire avengers guardian defenders...storm guardians and rangers...and I evaluate each game to see where they need to go.

I am just someone who likes to have more kinds of tools than just a few really good tools

Banshees have saved me a few times. The biggest being that time death cult assassins caught me off guard with their high I, they wiped out my scorpions, my banshees then charged reducing their I to 1 and killing them off. It was game winning.

I'd say the battleforce is a good starting point but I would look for the older one since it has a war walker instead of a vyper. And a war walker is actually a viable option in so many cases.

If you get the battleforce and a Farseer:
Don't mount the rear gun on the Vyper,
Use it as a jetbike for the Farseer,
Find a way to convert swap-out the underslung S-Cannon for catapults, for WYSIWYG queries.

But, Wave Serpents are good, if you kit them out right.
Guardian and DA squads work well in them, but DA are better for riding up the field. Their stats and armour make them last longer, but you'll want to pad out the squad with an Exarch. Leave the Guardians and cannon on an objective.

I ended up getting 3 of the olf battleforce boxes over the years, as 3 WW is a squad (same for Vypers), and 3 WS is enough to scare most people.

Thanks a lot guys,
I'll get the battleforce, codex, farseer etc, and have a look at the vyper stats and build it as a vyper or convert to a jetbike accordingly.
I would get the old battleforce, but I haven't found one yet- I'll keep looking though


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scrap that guys, I've found an old battleforce on ebay that finishes 24 hours from now that I will be bidding on.

All I know is that if you are wanting a small army on a budget and don't intend on using the Exarch parts, it's much wiser to buy a box of Guardians and paint them up as Dire Avengers. It's all I have ever done, even when they were a good deal.

Here is a link showing the strengths and weaknesses of Dire avengers. Hope it helps.

http://thewarmaster.com/index.php?topic=1923.0