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I've been trying to figure out a way start a robust Axis armoured company after playing a mass infantry.
Goal is for the list to be fairly competitive, able to pull though in a tournament.

HQ:
Pz IVG (late) x2 - 330

Core:
Pz IVG x3 - 435

Pz III L/M x4 - 460

FlammPz III x4 - 360

Recon:
Luchs x3 - 165


Total: 1750 (exactly!)

HQ are to be dispersed to bulk up Pz IV platoon to 4, and Pz III(L/M) to 5. Or, perhaps they should all join the Pz IV platoon to bring it up to 5(leaning heavily towards the former)?

Depending on a situation, FlammPz may operate independently, or as attachments to the primary combat platoons(for more of a Blitzy bumrush-y approach).

Luchs are a little light on bodies at a single patrol/3 tanks, but I figure they are not exactly a frontline unit, and have means of avoiding punishment.
No infantry, as to deny any soft targets whatsoever, i.e. easy VPs.


edit: Alternative list I also considered:

HQ:
Pz IVG(late)& Pz III L/M - 280

Core:
Pz IVG x3 - 435

Pz III L/M x3 - 345

FlammPz III x4 - 360

Recon:
Luchs x6 - 330


Like I said, I have never played full armoured korps before, so I have vague idea of what to have.
Flamm III's seem outright brilliant. Am I mistaken and missing something obvious?
Like I said, I need a good list, so let that pent up wisdom flow

If you have the Panzer IV 2ic with the Panzer III's, you open him up to being Gun-Tanked (ie, singled out in shooting). I'm kinda new myself, but I don't think that's the end all, but it certainly means that he'll be the first of that unit down.

I like the second list better, but I don't think you need the 2 units of recee. I'd replace one with some AA guns, more for some conventional anti-infantry and light vehicle shooting than for AA.

I don't know about the Flammpanzer's. Their range is supper short, which puts them into assault range of the infantry they are designed to kill. And with a couple good rolls, and the infantry will delete that unit.

You can't get a better MW German tank than a Pz III. Its cheap but very effective thanks to its high RoF.

If you aren't making a specific list (and aren't that bothered about Pz IVs) than I wouldn't bother with Pz IVs at all and rely on Marders for your heavy AT.

My suggestion woul dbe something like this:

HQ 2 x Pz III J (late)

4 x Pz III J (late)

1 x Pz III J (late), 3 x Pz III L

3 Marder II

Full Panzerpioneer platoon with panzerknacker

2 x 8 Rad (the best German recce choice)

2 armoured Sd Kfz 10/5s

This ticks all the boxes aside from artillery and smoke but that is expensive in Panzer lists.

You could also drop the AA (which in fairness isn't all thta good anyway) to swap the Marders for a Tiger and the pioneers for Gepanzerte Panzergrens.

I sort of treated, 2ic in the Pz III' s as a Firefly among Shermans - an acceptable potential loss(which requires 5+ to target). But I suppose it would make sense to hide him away.

Flammpanzers still seem powerful - if they get close enough to fire, that's 16 shots that kill everything that is not a vehicle on 3+ (as they are vets). That averages about 11 guaranteed kills with autopinning. which would wipe out most things, or, at least opens them up for a follow-up assault that would.
It seems so-so-so strong.

I have not considered AA. You find AA necessary for the armoured korps?

 Augustine wrote:

I have not considered AA. You find AA necessary for the armoured korps?

No, Air power isn't very powerful in FoW, especially if you hug cover. AAA is reasonably good at killing infantry but not that good and they are also very fragile. All in all I only take them to fillout points or if I have a lot of artillery.

The Flammpanzers are very good, IF they manage to get into range and IF they have worthwhile targets. If you are facing an infantry army with little or no ranged AT (like Finns) then they will do very well but against a tank army for example they are all but worthless. Flame tanks are not something that I have ever felt the need to field.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Augustine wrote:

I have not considered AA. You find AA necessary for the armoured korps?

No, Air power isn't very powerful in FoW, especially if you hug cover. AAA is reasonably good at killing infantry but not that good and they are also very fragile. All in all I only take them to fillout points or if I have a lot of artillery.

The Flammpanzers are very good, IF they manage to get into range and IF they have worthwhile targets. If you are facing an infantry army with little or no ranged AT (like Finns) then they will do very well but against a tank army for example they are all but worthless. Flame tanks are not something that I have ever felt the need to field.

What are the most worthwhile options for the armoured in your experience?
I'd love a basic breakdown.

lol, also a Mandate Backer

Everyone has different priorities but personally I always take a solid base of medium tanks, some recce, some infantry and something to crack heavy tanks. I rarely take artillery (its expensive and quite vulnerable in armoured lists although if you have access to cheap (100 points or so) smoke then take it), air (It rarely kills anything) or AAA (as I don't think much of air).

The medium tanks are there to provide your backbone; they provide a good volume of fire, contest ground and they are decent at assaulting infantry (in MW at least). I started out with Pz IVs but they are simply too fragile and while their AT 12 is very good but it is also overkill in MW. I started to use more Pz IIIs and I found them so useful that I eventually dropped the Pz IVs entirely. What makes the Pz III J/L/N so good is its 3 RoF, 4 of them will put out 16 AT 9 shots and that will kill anything short of a Tiger or KV1s, especially if you ambush with them. I have literally killed entire T34 companies in 1 volley before.

The recce is there to block ambushes and to life gone to ground on dug in infantry making them significantly easier to kill, all you need for recce is sufficent armour that they won't be worried by small arms and good mobility, the gun isn't important as you will rarely be using it. This is why 8 rads are the best choice in German lists.

Heavy AT is required to defend against anything that your mediums can't crack.

The infantry is there to hold ground and possibly assault in difficult terrain/make follow up assaults.

My first FoW army was a MittlerPanzer Kompanie and I got slaughtered for at least the first 10 games but its a good learning army to use as compared to other armies of the period its so small.

The list I posted above is my suggestion for a 1750 point list.

ooh, an excuse to drop in a Tiger? Yes, please

One of the earliest advice on the armour lists I have received from a tourney vet was to not have any infantry to deny easy VP and making a portion of the opposing list entirely ineffectual.
Which was sensible, I thought...

By two 8-rads you mean 2 Panzerspah patrols (4 vehicles) or a single patrol (2 vehicles)?

Do you find Pz IV F1 smoke capability too expensive?

If I don't take infantry I usually regret it. They are also quite survivable if used correctly (i.e. not in the open) and there are few things in FoW that only have a use against infantry (basically machine guns and infantry small arms). As I said though its personal preference, there are a lot of people who swear by AAA for instance (which really are an easy platoon to kill).

By 2 8 rads I mean a single heavy Panzerspah patrol of 2 vehicles; its usually the cheapest option, they have a good (for an armoured car) front armour and they have jeep mobility. They are all you need.

A PzIV F1 platoon is too expensive to be used just for smoke and they aren't very good at anthing else, the cheapest (reliable) option available is a full artillery battery at 245 points and even that is hard to justify in a list where points are tight.

Can I ask you to elaborate on the choice of the Panzer Model J(late, I assume)?
Extra 10 pts do not justify the extra frontal armour?

Also, what is the reason for the mixed composition platoon (1 J and 3 Ls)? Leftover points?

 Augustine wrote:

Extra 10 pts do not justify the extra frontal armour?

Cost, Panzer Kompanies are always points starved. Pz III Ls are obviously better but its hard to fit in a solid support base in 1750 points and field enough hulls. They may be only 10 points more but they add up quickly. The mixed paltoon is there simply becuase I ran out of points to upgrade. You could drop the AA and upgrade everyone but that would leave you with 50 points spare and nothing to spend it on.

The Late Js have exactly the same gun so their firepower is the same and FA 5 isn't that bad in MW.

I am gravitating towards the following:

HQ: 2 Pz III J (Shurtzen)

4 Pz III J (Shurtzen) + 1 PzIII J(early)
4 Pz III J (Shurtzen) + 1 PzIII J(early)

Tiger 1E
2 8-rads

and/or

HQ: 2 Pz III J (Shurtzen)

4 Pz III J (Shurtzen)
4 Pz III J (Shurtzen)
4 PzIIIJ early (Shurtzen)
2 Marder II
2 8-rads

While I'd love to use a Tiger, I feel that second is capable of laying in considerably more pressure, which fits with the armour mentality.
Still want to try out pure armour - at the very least, its a more aesthetically pleasing looking force to my tastes.

Since when could Panzer III J's get Schürtzen skirts? I thought only Panzer III L/M's had that option besides the Panzer IV G (late)/H for MW....(Eastern Front)

Js can't have schurzen.

Early Js are cheap and they are just as good against infantry but their AT of 7 is quite a hindrance. If you really want a Tiger you could drop the early Js and down grade the Marders to Marder Is which gives you enough points for a big cat. I suspect that Pz Js and Tigers isn't historical though.

Gah, apologies, silly me
Take three:

HQ: 2 Pz III L/M (Shurtzen)

4 Pz III L/M (Shurtzen)
4 Pz III L/M (Shurtzen)
3 Pz IV E/F1
2 Marder III M
2 8-rads

Three Pz IV are not exactly what I wanted initially, but they are something to fit 300 pts and add more bodies plus add another element to the field.
Though when I thought about it, I see some helpful synergy between the smoke and squishy Marders. Bombardments seem to have some potential uses too.

After absorbing the advice of many-many people, I am ultimately settling with this, it seems:
HQ: x2 Pz III N (schurzen)

X4 Pz III N (schurzen)
x4 Pz III L/M
x3 Pz IV F2

x1 Patrol of 8-rads
x3 Neb 41s

You definitely have the bases covered... I prefer having some infantry in the list, but that is personal choice.

I'm on easyarmy, and I'm not seeing where you can take nebs in that list. I may be blind though.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like I said, I've been playing around on EasyArmy.com and here is what I came up with:

HQ: 2x PzIII N (Schurtzen)

4x PzIII N (schurtzen)
4x PzIII L/M
3x PzIV E/F1 (taken for the Smoke... keep them back until you need them)

Full Panzergren Platoon w/knacker and mortar team
2x 8-Rads

You can kampgroup in cases where an even number of platoons is wise.