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Hey,

I recently picked up the two-player battle box and I am looking to expand. After asking around and looking at fielded armies I am coming up a wee bit short straight out of the box. With that in mind I would like to get some suggestions/advice on what additions would be a good fit.

For those who might not know the contents of the box I'll list them out.

Protectorate 21 points
High Exemplar Kreoss +5
Crusader 6
Vanquisher 8
Repenter 4
Exemplar Cinerators 8

Khador 20 points
Kommander Sorshca +5
Destroyer 9
Juggernaut 7
Man-O-War Shocktroopers 9

What it seems locally is that 35 and 50 points are the most common with the lean towards 50. I looked over PP's website and saw some very nice models that I would like to add, but I know if I go about it without some assistance I would be setting myself back on time/money...even if I do enjoy those battle engines and colossals. My ideal situation would be having 50 point armies for both Protectorate and Khador. This is also my first foray into a miniature game of this caliber...figured I should finally step up from the clix systems.

I was not sure if this post should go into the army list forum or here, but I had other questions in addition to the above so I figured I would post here.

Looking over battle engines and colossals...what's the average points to field one?
If throwing a third or forth player into a game a difficult task?

Thanks!

Well for the Protectorate, the Choir of Menoth and Vassals of Menoth(2 of them) are basically mandatory for all players. They are why we are the second best faction for Jacks(behind CoC)

Then, you'll want to pick up one of each heavy kit and magnetize them. That will give you all the main heavy jacks.


Cinerators are rather unfortunate since Bastions cost the same as they do and are superior in every way. All the tricks Cinerators have basically require your opponent to oblige them(damage them without killing them outright and bunch troops together so you can burn them). You could purchase the Bastion halberd bits from PP direct and make them into Bastions if you want, or follow any number of conversion guides on the internet. Its not that Cineraors are bad, its that they're 1 point too expensive and Bastions are better for that cost.

For other infantry, you've got the choice between TFG, Zealots, or Exemplar errants. All with their UA. Each unit is amazing so its really personal choice. In a 50 point list I'd say pick 2.

For support, the Covenant of Menoth and Rhupert Carvolo(mercenary) are great support for our infantry. The Covenant on its own is great but its No Knockdown aura synergizes well with Tough from Rhupert. It can also use a no spell aura which can really mess your opponent up.

Wracks and the Heirophant are also great caster support.

pKreoss's main deal is shooting, particularly assassinations. Pop'n'drop is what its called. Feat on their army and shoot the warcaster while he's on the ground. The Redeemer is a great jack for this, 3 pow14 shots(with Choir) from 21" away. Add another shot if you use a Vassal to ancillary attack. The Reckoner and Vanquisher also can contribute high pow ranged on a knocked down caster. A good Merc to include for this is Taryn di la Rhovissi. If there is a model you can't knock down with the feat blocking the shots she can pop that unit to make it invisible for LoS purposes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

medikant wrote:

Looking over battle engines and colossals...what's the average points to field one?

People can and will field Colossals at any point range. Not always a good idea though.

For Khador and Protectorate, 35 would be about the minimum you'd see one usually.

If throwing a third or forth player into a game a difficult task?

Not really, but keep in mind it would toss game balance out the window.

3 way games tend to become two players ganging up on the other OR one player letting the other two beat each other up till he can swoop in and knock them both out.

You can do 2vs1 games just fine. Give one player twice the points and let him field 2 warcasters. 2vs2 also works just fine. As long as the playing field is even its a balanced game.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Well for the Protectorate, the Choir of Menoth and Vassals of Menoth(2 of them) are basically mandatory for all players. They are why we are the second best faction for Jacks(behind CoC)

Then, you'll want to pick up one of each heavy kit and magnetize them. That will give you all the main heavy jacks.


Cinerators are rather unfortunate since Bastions cost the same as they do and are superior in every way. All the tricks Cinerators have basically require your opponent to oblige them(damage them without killing them outright and bunch troops together so you can burn them). You could purchase the Bastion halberd bits from PP direct and make them into Bastions if you want, or follow any number of conversion guides on the internet. Its not that Cineraors are bad, its that they're 1 point too expensive and Bastions are better for that cost.

For other infantry, you've got the choice between TFG, Zealots, or Exemplar errants. All with their UA. Each unit is amazing so its really personal choice. In a 50 point list I'd say pick 2.

For support, the Covenant of Menoth and Rhupert Carvolo(mercenary) are great support for our infantry. The Covenant on its own is great but its No Knockdown aura synergizes well with Tough from Rhupert. It can also use a no spell aura which can really mess your opponent up.

Wracks and the Heirophant are also great caster support.

pKreoss's main deal is shooting, particularly assassinations. Pop'n'drop is what its called. Feat on their army and shoot the warcaster while he's on the ground. The Redeemer is a great jack for this, 3 pow14 shots(with Choir) from 21" away. Add another shot if you use a Vassal to ancillary attack. The Reckoner and Vanquisher also can contribute high pow ranged on a knocked down caster. A good Merc to include for this is Taryn di la Rhovissi. If there is a model you can't knock down with the feat blocking the shots she can pop that unit to make it invisible for LoS purposes.

Thanks for the awesome run down. I'll be checking into all these and picking them up when able. I was looking through the rulebook that comes with the battle box and wondering...is there a particular downside to including mercenaries in an army? I see there's specific rules and a book with them...is it worth while to pick up that book or any of the other "main" books?

 Grey Templar wrote:

Not really, but keep in mind it would toss game balance out the window.

3 way games tend to become two players ganging up on the other OR one player letting the other two beat each other up till he can swoop in and knock them both out.

You can do 2vs1 games just fine. Give one player twice the points and let him field 2 warcasters. 2vs2 also works just fine. As long as the playing field is even its a balanced game.

That's what I was hoping to here. My wife and brother are both interested in playing, but they prefer handicapped matches against me in game. So was unsure if it would throw off the flow or not.

On the war engines and collosals...what are the benefits and downsides to fielding one?

I expanded the Menoth box by getting a new caster (Harby) choir, vassal and a unit of exemplar errants.

That should get you a nice 35 point army.

I was not super impressed by the cinerators. So when I expand more I will probably drop them.

I also like the repenter plastic jack kit.

medikant wrote:
On the war engines and collosals...what are the benefits and downsides to fielding one?

I'll field this one:

Colossals - these act exactly like giant warjacks (as you'd expect). The benefit and downside of fielding one of these is that you're taking (approximately) the utility of 2 heavy jacks plus a bit and slapping it in a single chassis that's slightly less durable than 2 heavy jacks. The benefit is that if you have any buffs that affect a single warjack then you get the best mileage out of them on the colossal (this is especially true for Cygnar and their ridiculous armor buff known as "Arcane Shield"). Also you don't have multiple jacks eating up your warcaster's focus, you can allocate 3 to the colossal and be "done".

The disadvantage is of course the durability factor. In a game like Warmachine where damage comes in hard and heavy your colossal has a gigantic target painted on it. There's no model in the game big enough to avoid getting taken down if your opponent commits enough to it, including the colossals. As a result you have to make sure you get your points out of them before they go down (usually by getting the first strike on the pieces most likely to be able to crack their armor). That's mainly it from a downside standpoint, 2 heavies and a utility solo have more combined durability. Plus there's usually heavies that will fill roles your colossal can't, so if you want that utility you might not want the colossal since barring extremely jack centric lists you will have at most one other jack in your battlegroup.

Battle Engines - I have a hard time quantifying these. Don't try to compare them against warjacks, they're more like big giant solos. They pretty much do their thing without taking up any of your caster's resources. Menoth's is actually one of the good ones I think, but don't hold me to that. I suppose the advantage of them is that they are a big, durable, usually fairly specialized model that does its thing without requiring support. The downside is that as I said they're pretty specific so if you don't need what the battle engine is selling then they're not any use to you. Also the fact they are independent means that getting buffs on them isn't as easy as it could be for other kinds of models.

Mercs book - You don't really need it unless you're planning to play a pure Merc army at some point. You can find out which Mercs are good, who they'll work for and what they do from Battle Collage, and when you buy them they come with their full rules on their cards with the models anyway. You can also get War Room (PPs digital app) and buy the Mercs deck, if you want to see all the cards before buying.

Battle Engines - I wouldn't bother getting any of these until you're more experienced, with the possible exception of the Menoth Vessal of Judgement. They basically take up the points of a unit or Warjack, but act like a solo and don't need focus to run, but most need the right list to really be worth it. Menoth one is pretty awesome though.

Colossals - They're huge and take up lots of points, which really can limit what else you get on the field, and fitting them in can often mean you'll be missing other great options and have a low body count on the field. Losing a Colossal is a major blow to an army with one, as well.

However, what they represent is versatile models that deliver a lot of power at a point. Any buffs on them go far further than the same buff on a heavy, a focus on a colossal means a bigger hit than the same focus on a heavy. Basically it's a power multiplier, and it comes in with so much built in effect protection (no knockdown, stationary, disruption, slams, pushes or whatever). So basically, big investment, but there are some big advantages too. The Khador and Protectorate Colossals both see a fair bit of play, but their use is fairly caster dependant (for Protectorate, pKreoss, eFeora and pSev get the most use out of one, for instance).

Battle Engines are all different really. The Menoth one is primarily toolbox/shooting and its very good. Best engine really because it can boost its attacks by damaging itself. People usually take a Mechanik to follow it around and fix it.

Thanks all for the information. Looks like I've got my Menoth list to pick up next payday. Hopefully someone can pop in with some Khador information for me.

The Menoth battle engine looks pretty sick and it's on my list to get.

So I picked up a choir and some zealots today. As I ended up with an older pack without realizing (only 5 zealots as opposed to the 10).. Would a unit of five be worthwhile or should I grab another pack to boost it to ten? I was thinking of grabbing some Exemplar Errants and Temple Flameguard. Partly for experimentation and point filler.

Small rant, basing up the zealots was a pain. Had to chop off the metal bar between the legs on each of them due to it being overly large. Gotta say I prefer plastic models.

You should have 6 Zealots in that pack. The minimum unit is the leader and 5 grunts.

A min unit of zealots is viable, but they really need their UA to shine.

Yeah, grab the monolith bearer, it's essential for Zealots.

Meanwhile, grabbing an older pack of zealots can be annoying, because they've discontinued the blister packs as they've moved to selling full units. See if you can find a couple of blister packs for them to bring it up to a mad unit, or at least another min box, which will leave you with a couple of extras, but You could always use two min units that way if you wanted. Or use the extras as dead zealots on Khadorian bases

Also, now you have the choir, grab a vassal of Menoth (not to be confused with the Vassal Mechanik) to complete the jack buffing.

I'll be doing some more buying this weekend...shame my local store is 45 or so away from me.

Haven't seen any Khabor in here yet, anybody know the "must haves" for them?

You can also buy the models you're missing in the bits section of PP's website.

http://store.privateerpress.com/protectorateofmenothunits.aspx

medikant wrote:
Haven't seen any Khabor in here yet, anybody know the "must haves" for them?

Khador are extremely infantry-heavy and shouldn't usually run more than one, maybe two warjacks. They have amazing single-wound models such as the Iron Fang Pikemen (especially with Black Dragon UA) and the Winterguard Deathstar (Winterguard + UA + Rockets + Kovnik Joe). If you're building on pSorscha, I definitely suggest the Winterguard.

As far as warjacks with pSorscha go, she loves both Destroyers and the Behemoth as assassination keys with her feat. She can feat to make things stationary and now their RAT4 doesn't matter since your opponent is DEF5. Dropping three POW14 bombs on their head and boosting for damage will kill nearly any warcaster caught unaware. Of course, your opponent can hide from arcing fire by snuggling up to a larger base, but there are ways around that too.

Outside of those two bombers, both Sorschas love her character warjack, Beast-09. Beast-09 is a powerhouse, but he can get a little focus hungry for Sorscha's tastes.

 Surtur wrote:
You can also buy the models you're missing in the bits section of PP's website.

http://store.privateerpress.com/protectorateofmenothunits.aspx

Dang! Thanks for saving me some money as I would not have found that portion of the website quite yet.

 Kirbinator wrote:


Khador are extremely infantry-heavy and shouldn't usually run more than one, maybe two warjacks. They have amazing single-wound models such as the Iron Fang Pikemen (especially with Black Dragon UA) and the Winterguard Deathstar (Winterguard + UA + Rockets + Kovnik Joe). If you're building on pSorscha, I definitely suggest the Winterguard.

As far as warjacks with pSorscha go, she loves both Destroyers and the Behemoth as assassination keys with her feat. She can feat to make things stationary and now their RAT4 doesn't matter since your opponent is DEF5. Dropping three POW14 bombs on their head and boosting for damage will kill nearly any warcaster caught unaware. Of course, your opponent can hide from arcing fire by snuggling up to a larger base, but there are ways around that too.

Outside of those two bombers, both Sorschas love her character warjack, Beast-09. Beast-09 is a powerhouse, but he can get a little focus hungry for Sorscha's tastes.

Awesome and thanks for the information now I've got a good basis for my Khador purchases.. What's your take on Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed? Been eyeballing him just for the sake of having a sick Khador model...but curious to effectiveness as well.

medikant wrote:
What's your take on Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed? Been eyeballing him just for the sake of having a sick Khador model...but curious to effectiveness as well.

I am not a Khador expert and know absolutely nothing about them, but the tagline on the podcast I listen to was "oh, you left 2 heavies within 11" of each other? How unfortunate for you" the day they tested him out. So to the best of my knowledge he is the father of all super-solo get in and smash face warcasters in every one of his incarnations.

One more thing about colossals. They can only be in one spot at a time and their movements can be predictable.

 dementedwombat wrote:

medikant wrote:
What's your take on Orsus Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed? Been eyeballing him just for the sake of having a sick Khador model...but curious to effectiveness as well.

I am not a Khador expert and know absolutely nothing about them, but the tagline on the podcast I listen to was "oh, you left 2 heavies within 11" of each other? How unfortunate for you" the day they tested him out. So to the best of my knowledge he is the father of all super-solo get in and smash face warcasters in every one of his incarnations.

That sounds pretty dang tough.

BTNeophyte wrote:
One more thing about colossals. They can only be in one spot at a time and their movements can be predictable.

Hmm, I'll have to youtube and see if I can find some batreps with them. Thinking of grabbing one or a battle engine for my birthday.

Depends on the Colossal/Battle Engine.

The Khador colossal is good, as is the Protectorate colossal. The Protectorate one is probably better because it gets a free point of focus and has all the Menoth jack buffs available to it.

The Konquest is a good choice simply because Khador usually runs only 1 jack anyway, so it might as well be the big one.

As far as battle engines go, the Menoth one is the best hands down. It has 3 really nice abilities and a boostable gun. All the other engines need outside help to get boosts, the Menoth one does it by taking damage. Its almost always run with a mechanik to follow it around to fix it up for this reason.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Depends on the Colossal/Battle Engine.

The Khador colossal is good, as is the Protectorate colossal. The Protectorate one is probably better because it gets a free point of focus and has all the Menoth jack buffs available to it.

The Konquest is a good choice simply because Khador usually runs only 1 jack anyway, so it might as well be the big one.

As far as battle engines go, the Menoth one is the best hands down. It has 3 really nice abilities and a boostable gun. All the other engines need outside help to get boosts, the Menoth one does it by taking damage. Its almost always run with a mechanik to follow it around to fix it up for this reason.

I've not seen either in battle yet, I'd say in theory the free focus does give it a slight edge. But the Khador one could probably wreck it if it was with any incarnation of the butcher,

Khador are tough but slow, but saying that our resident Khador player once sent the butcher accross to my pKaya in the first turn and that was that.

Either Colossal could wreck the other fairly easily.

You often see the Judicator run with eFeora and bonded. That means it can have Ignite+Battle and 4 Focus total. That puts it at having either 5 pow24 attacks(with one boosted damage) or 6 pow24 attacks with no boosts.

Add another attack for a Vassal and the Judicator is having 6-7 attacks with dice+4 against the Conquest.

The Judicator will also have a 11" charge threat with eFeora too.

migooo wrote:
I've not seen either in battle yet, I'd say in theory the free focus does give it a slight edge. But the Khador one could probably wreck it if it was with any incarnation of the butcher,

Khador are tough but slow, but saying that our resident Khador player once sent the butcher accross to my pKaya in the first turn and that was that.

Something you have to understand about this game, Warmachine/Hordes is a game of tissue paper artillery. The designers deliberately made it so that every model can put out way more offense than they are capable of sustaining defense wise. It's kind of a deliberate decision to keep the game fast paced and tactical, and to avoid getting it bogged down in defensive standoffs.

As someone who loves bricks and gunlines, I had a heck of a lot of adjusting. I'm still not fully acclimated to just how much offense models can put out relative to how paper thin their defense is. You pretty much just advance a model to destroy a target threat and don't expect to see it again past that turn.

Khador jacks are about as durable as anything gets in this game, but they'll still go down to a charge from an enemy heavy. Even if they don't get wrecked they most likely lost some vital systems which will make retaliation difficult.

 dementedwombat wrote:


Something you have to understand about this game, Warmachine/Hordes is a game of tissue paper artillery.

Range wise, how do Menoth and Khador compare?

medikant wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:


Something you have to understand about this game, Warmachine/Hordes is a game of tissue paper artillery.

Range wise, how do Menoth and Khador compare?

Both tend towards short range shooting and melee, but both have exceptions. Khador have some long range bombards on some jacks and Mortars and Widowmakers to make their long range game count. Menoth tends towards long range innaccurate rockets, with everything else being pretty short range, with the notable exception of the very popular Reckoner, which has RNG12 and Assault, meaning a 20" threat range with very powerful and accurate shooting. Menoth plays the mid-range shooting game a little better though, because of excellent jack buffs through Choir and Vassals, while Khador generally prefers Axe-to-Face.

Thanks for the range information. Looking forward to getting in some friendlies at my house once I finish painting.

So I am debating picking up the faction books on PDF. How do they fare vs physical copies? Any idea how they are on tablets?

Second follow up question is what do the books generally contain, are they full of fluff? Rules? Advice?

Also picked up a Cryx battlegroup to put around with and try some different painting techniques out on.

The books are full of fluff and the rules for models that were current as of the book release. So they will be missing newer models.

Some rules that are unique to the books are Tactical Tips. On the pages of some models with certain rules there are little boxes that contain clarifying information regarding a certain rule. For example, on the page of the Templar warjack in the PoM book there is a tactical tip regarding Beat Back. It clarifies that the model with Beat Back can still advance if the attack kills the target model.

There are also painting guides and model gallery pages in the back of the books.


About the fluff, unlike GW books, PP has advanced the storyline with each new book. So the fluff in the Mk2 faction books is subsequent to the fluff in the Mk1 books. So to get a total view of the story line you'll need to get the Mk1 books. And all the supplemental books. Fortunately PP has them available on their digital app for dirt cheap(as in a couple bucks).