Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Pretty simple: Do Dark Eldar Reavers need Line of Sight in order to use a Bladevane attack?

The rules basics: When DE Reavers Turbo-boost, they can inflict a number of hits on a single opponent they pass over. Cover saves ARE allowed against these wounds. In 6th edition, the FAQ clarified that for wound allocation you are to treat the attack as coming from the Reavers' final location.

So, do the Reavers have to end their move within Line of Sight of their target?

Does the Bladevane rules give you permission to ignore the LOS requirement for removing casualties?

 insaniak wrote:
Does the Bladevane rules give you permission to ignore the LOS requirement for removing casualties?

Nope, but I've recently been told over here that they don't require LOS. So I thought I would hop on over to YMDC to see if I was screwing myself with my Bladevane attacks.

It's an interesting question, I've had similar thoughts about vector strikes by FMC that exit the table.

RAW you probably need LoS, RAI no, why would you? - you could duck your bike behind a hill after the attack, be crazy not to if the terrain was there.

Insaniak;
A few Special Rules fail to take the additional Line of Sight requirements for Wound Allocation into account, even when clearly designed to hit targets without requiring line of sight, so it is not as easy to state intent in these matters.

Uptopdownunder;
Vector Strike uses Random Allocation and I believe it also ignores cover, so the final location is completely irrelevant to it's resolution.

Everything requires Line of Sight unless explicitly stated otherwise.

I thought the LOS issue only applied to shooting attacks? In CC for example you can wound what you can't see i think? No book to hand though.

They do not need LOS to use the ability, but they do need LOS to be able to allocate the wounds to the unit that was passed over.

JinxDragon wrote:
Insaniak;
A few Special Rules fail to take the additional Line of Sight requirements for Wound Allocation into account, even when clearly designed to hit targets without requiring line of sight, so it is not as easy to state intent in these matters.

Could you give a few examples of such Special Rules? Please, note that I am not disagreeing with you out of hand.
I believe such examples could indeed be very relevant to the discussion at hand.

My personal favorite is the Homing Special Rule, found on some Tau Weapons systems.

Shooting attacks require Line of Sight unless explicitly stated otherwise.

the confusion some people are having comes from the rules for shooting attacks.

under the rule for "out of sight" on page 16 of the rulebook it specifically says "If no models in the firing unit can see a particular model...if there are no visible models remaining in the target unit, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost and the shooting attack ends."

some specific things to note.

bladevanes, do not count as a shooting attack, nor are they are a shooting attack, nor are they in place of shooting.

Bladevanes are not firing, nor are they shooting as they happen as a result of turbo boosting which means you may not make a shooting attack. Therefore bladevanes are not shooting, nor do they count as shooting, or instead of shooting, and their rules use none of those words or any similar wording to imply they would.

Therefore bladevanes are not shooting, and as such do not follow the LoS rules for shooting, just as they do not follow to hit rules for shooting etc.

Bladevanes are not a shooting attack, and the LoS issue from "out of sight" only applies to shooting attacks.

Even if you wish to argue somehow RAI that you need to see the model to bladevane it, at the time the model is passed over it is at 0" from the bladevaning model to the target and has LoS during the move when the attack happens.

It is also worth noting because of this the target model should not benefit from cover from terrain it is in, just like vector striking.

Also this would all apply to screamers which are more prevalent in most metas.

Steelmage99 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Insaniak;
A few Special Rules fail to take the additional Line of Sight requirements for Wound Allocation into account, even when clearly designed to hit targets without requiring line of sight, so it is not as easy to state intent in these matters.

Could you give a few examples of such Special Rules? Please, note that I am not disagreeing with you out of hand.
I believe such examples could indeed be very relevant to the discussion at hand.

Tau Smart Missile Systems and Seeker Missiles.....
Tyranid Hive Guard.....

Both have weapons that do not need line of sight to shoot.
But GW in their stellar rule writing manner never gave them an exception to needing Line of Sight to wound....... So by strict RaW, you could shoot at a unit out of sight, but never be allowed to wound it.

Its very clearly not as intended, but it is the way it would be if you followed strict RaW.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Tau Smart Missile Systems and Seeker Missiles.....
Tyranid Hive Guard.....

Both have weapons that do not need line of sight to shoot.
But GW in their stellar rule writing manner never gave them an exception to needing Line of Sight to wound....... So by strict RaW, you could shoot at a unit out of sight, but never be allowed to wound it.

Its very clearly not as intended, but it is the way it would be if you followed strict RaW.

Hive Guard require LOS. In the old codex they did not need LOS, but now they do (and they were straight up given Ignores Cover.


Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll just throw this out there:
Nova powers and Beam powers can potentially target and hit units out of sight.
Astral Aim straight up gives permission to target units out of sight.

 Happyjew wrote:

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll just throw this out there:
Nova powers and Beam powers can potentially target and hit units out of sight.
Astral Aim straight up gives permission to target units out of sight.

Yes, but hitting and wounding are not the same, so from a true RaW perspective, can those (and Bladevanes) wound without LOS?
I'm quite sure the intention is they can, but strictly rules wise they cannot without the exception being given in the special rule/power/weapon/ability.

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll just throw this out there:
Nova powers and Beam powers can potentially target and hit units out of sight.
Astral Aim straight up gives permission to target units out of sight.

Yes, but hitting and wounding are not the same, so from a true RaW perspective, can those (and Bladevanes) wound without LOS?
I'm quite sure the intention is they can, but strictly rules wise they cannot without the exception being given in the special rule/power/weapon/ability.

Then can barrage weapons wound? They do not require LoS to wound because the rules say that they do not require LoS. Simple as that.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll just throw this out there:
Nova powers and Beam powers can potentially target and hit units out of sight.
Astral Aim straight up gives permission to target units out of sight.

Yes, but hitting and wounding are not the same, so from a true RaW perspective, can those (and Bladevanes) wound without LOS?
I'm quite sure the intention is they can, but strictly rules wise they cannot without the exception being given in the special rule/power/weapon/ability.

Then can barrage weapons wound? They do not require LoS to wound because the rules say that they do not require LoS. Simple as that.

BRB page 16, "Out of Sight" would say otherwise. And the Barrage rules tell us the shot is treated as coming from the center of the blast marker so yes, they can wound any model in LOS to the center of the blast.

Rorschach9,
I honestly do not know.

This debate is not a new one, I have seen it a few times in the past on a range of different weapons and situations, and I am unsure how to answer whenever I see it as it is that much of a mess. Some people want to use the Wound Allocation Line of Sight to reduce the over-powered nature of a few weapons/situations, in particular weapons/situations that use a beam like method of hit generation, but at other times are more then willing to wave away the requirement as it is clearly unintended, such in the sake of of the Homing Special Rule. It appears the only criteria appears to be personal choice in the matter, because the absence of instructions is the core of the problem we face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Co'tor Shas,

Barrage rules inform us that they use the Blast Rules
Blast Rules contain permission to wound outside of Line of Sight
Therefore Barrage can wound outside of Line of Sight

and all of those are shooting attacks which bladevanes is not.

blaktoof wrote:
and all of those are shooting attacks which bladevanes is not.

How does a non-shooting/non-assault "attack" allocate wounds (fyi, the only rules for allocating wounds are in shooting and assaulting, which references shooting rules)? What kind of attack is Bladevane then?

The attack type is easy to know: Undefined
It isn't an abnormality either, the vast majority of Wounds generated by Special Rules are not defined as shooting or close combat attacks and so can not be considered either.

JinxDragon wrote:
The attack type is easy to know: Undefined
It isn't an abnormality either, the vast majority of Wounds generated by Special Rules are undefined.

As that attack type is not in the rules we do not have permission (unless it is granted in the special ability/rule/whateveritis) to allocate wounds. So I guess it cannot ever wound anything (obviously not intended, and not HIWPI, but from a RaW perspective...)

Yeah but unfortunately you also do not have permission to empty the wound pool and discard the unallocated wounds from the to wound rolls for it either..

blaktoof wrote:
Yeah but unfortunately you also do not have permission to empty the wound pool and discard the unallocated wounds from the to wound rolls for it either..

So, clearly, as there is no permission given to wound models that are Out of Sight, the interpretation must be (in order to move forward with the game and this particular attack) that the unit needs LOS to the models it attacked with using Bladevanes. Of course, it's equally feasible that it does not, but without a clear ruling either way it is the one that makes the most sense.

Requires an errata or FAQ entry in order to do otherwise (or, of course, agreement between players, aka : house rules)

It has permission to generate wounds from its rules, it doesn't require permission to generate wounds out of line of sight as it is not a shooting attack.

Shooting attacks require permission to do so because they have rules that specify shooting and firer.

blaktoof wrote:
It has permission to generate wounds from its rules, it doesn't require permission to generate wounds out of line of sight as it is not a shooting attack.

Well no... But if it isn't a shooting attack or a close combat attack, which rules are you using for generating wounds?

blaktoof wrote:
It has permission to generate wounds from its rules, it doesn't require permission to generate wounds out of line of sight as it is not a shooting attack.

Shooting attacks require permission to do so because they have rules that specify shooting and firer.

causing wounds and allocating wounds are not the same thing. Where is the permission to allocate those wounds out of line of sight? There are only 2 references to allocating wounds and that is in Shooting attacks and Close combat attacks. As you're saying it's neither of those, and there are no further rules in the attack to tell you how to allocate the wounds generated, you cannot.

So then we have a situation where it can generate wounds as per RAW, but does not have permission to allocate them nor does it have permission to discard or empty the wound pool.

There is only 1 reference to discarding wounds from the wound pool that I have noticed, and that is "out of sight" under shooting which pertains to only shooting attacks.

So if you bladevane a unit and cause lets say 9 wounds, if you cannot allocate them, and you cannot empty the wound pool what would happen?

the next time a wound is generated on the unit from say a shooting attack or assault it would then have to resolve all the wounds in the wound pool, but of course this is all conjecture that is way out in limbo beyond what is written because there is not really any RAW regarding allocating wounds that are not generated by shooting or close combat.

this creates some other interesting situations.

lets say a vehicle explodes.

The explosion is a way of generating wounds and is neither a shooting attack, nor is it an assault attack. Lets imagine you roll a d6 for this exploding vehicle and get a 6!, yay! BOOM. within 4" of the vehicle are 3 firedragons on the otherside of a wall, they do not have LOS to the vehicle and the Vehicle does not have LOS to them. Do they get wounded? How do we allocate the wounds? Even if they were in LoS it is neither a shooting or close combat attack, so how could the wounds be allocated?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Tau Smart Missile Systems and Seeker Missiles.....
Tyranid Hive Guard.....

Both have weapons that do not need line of sight to shoot.
But GW in their stellar rule writing manner never gave them an exception to needing Line of Sight to wound....... So by strict RaW, you could shoot at a unit out of sight, but never be allowed to wound it.

Its very clearly not as intended, but it is the way it would be if you followed strict RaW.

Hive Guard require LOS. In the old codex they did not need LOS, but now they do (and they were straight up given Ignores Cover.


Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll just throw this out there:
Nova powers and Beam powers can potentially target and hit units out of sight.
Astral Aim straight up gives permission to target units out of sight.

HJ, Impaler cannons are homing

I would play that they do not need LoS

RAW I would say its entirely nonsensical as others have pointed out there's no rules for wound allocation outside of shooting attacks or close combat attacks.

If you try to follow the shooting rules there's also the paragraph right next to the line of sight one requiring that the target be in range. If you are going to argue they follow the line of sight for shooting why not the range for shooting? The attacks range is undefined so its even further fubared