Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I have been nervous to post this due to peoples' love of the fluff but here we go. I mean no offence, it just struck me as i read them back again.
In Unremembered Empire Guilliman is attacked by 9 (from my memory) traitors in his office. Now he is variously wounded and the focus is on the difficultly of the fight for him. In the Battle of Calth he was put in his place by Kor Phaeron (briefly). This all seems unlikely for such a supreme warrior (i am a big fan before i offend any Ultramarine players)
Other times the primarchs have variously waded through a sea of humanity without a scratch or been considered unkillable unless it is by another primarch.
Anyone else feel there is a lack of consistency in the primarchs abilities/strengths? Angron would have squashed those 9 without a second thought. Is it just to allow a tiny amount of story development? Were they made too superhuman?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/20 18:59:41
Oh, for sure, things are inconsistent. Magnus is one of the worst offenders. He can crumple titans with a thought and lay waste to planets with a snap of his fingers, but a dozen space wolf dreadnoughts and a couple wolf captains wrecked his beans on the battle of the fang. He almost seems to forget how powerful he is at times.
Its the result of a lore that has been around for a long time and is based on extremes and excess and scale, and is open for many to contribute to and is poorly regulated.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/20 19:21:31
"We are the Red Sorcerers of Prospero, damned in the eyes of our fellows, and this is to be how our story ends, in betrayal and bloodshed. No...you may find it nobler to suffer your fate, but I will take arms against it." -Ahzek Ahriman
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons
Oh, for sure, things are inconsistent. Magnus is one of the worst offenders. He can crumple titans with a thought and lay waste to planets with a snap of his fingers, but a dozen space wolf dreadnoughts and a couple wolf captains wrecked his beans on the battle of the fang. He almost seems to forget how powerful he is at times.
Its the result of a lore that has been around for a long time and is based on extremes and excess and scale, and is open for many to contribute to and is poorly regulated.
This does seem to be the case, Magnus is certainly frustrating to read about, and i am all about Fenris so for you it must be particularly painful
well he is unarmoured, unarmed and was taken by surprise. this is enough for him to be taken down alone, but he wasnt, thats pretty beast alone
I guess both Mark of Calth and Unremembered Empire focus on how he is spreading himself to thin and is making mistakes, forgetting things. Still i would expect any primarch (although there are some i know less about, Alpharus etc) to easily resolve this situation.
I guess I expect to much for all those BL writers to show consistency
also, doesnt Guilliman get hit with a blast of some warp thing by Kor Phaeron at the start of the battle? that would certainly account for why he wasnt 100% there.
And its not like he knew about the warpy evil stuff at that point, so it makes sense why he was taken unawares.
And lets not make Guilliman to be a complete creampuff, in that book alone he survives being sucked into space and chilling out there for a little bit.
There is only the Emperor! He is our shield and protector.
changerofways wrote: Oh, for sure, things are inconsistent. Magnus is one of the worst offenders. He can crumple titans with a thought and lay waste to planets with a snap of his fingers, but a dozen space wolf dreadnoughts and a couple wolf captains wrecked his beans on the battle of the fang. He almost seems to forget how powerful he is at times.
Its the result of a lore that has been around for a long time and is based on extremes and excess and scale, and is open for many to contribute to and is poorly regulated.
That's because Russ and his sons had a near Blank-like affect on psykers, especially Magnus.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Magnus actually seems weaker post becoming a daemon prince.
Even with his warp abilities diminished, he was still a gigantic frickin primarch. Now; he's a bad cell signal.
Prospero VS the Fang : On prospero, he barely even enters the fray, and has a gigantic effect. Russ essentially gets lucky with the eye shot, Magnus was winning beforehand, while unleashing hell on the wolves. Battle of the fang, yeah he's doing ok, but he's fully committed, and has planned this out, and does not do the damage he is capable of by far. Because of poor 4g coverage.
Apparently Angron works with a can, a string and a bunch of psychotics.
That's because Russ and his sons had a near Blank-like affect on psykers, especially Magnus.
No, only Russ does, and even then Russ' psychic backlash abilities didn't seem to work on Magnus to any great extent. For all of Leman Russ' presence, Magnus was still killing hundreds of Space Wolves "with a glance".
It's just inconsistent writing. Generally, Graham McNeill writes the most powerful Primarchs. Under his pen, they'll do things like shrug off a mountain collapsing on them. ADB writes Primarchs that are weak as feth but only when he wants them to be. Lorgar having his hand blown up by a bolter comes to mind, despite guys like Corax wading through lascannons in another book of his. Abnett's Primarchs seem to be pretty weak.
Generally, Graham McNeill writes the most powerful Primarchs. Under his pen, they'll do things like shrug off a mountain collapsing on them. ADB writes Primarchs that are weak as feth but only when he wants them to be. Lorgar having his hand blown up by a bolter comes to mind, despite guys like Corax wading through lascannons in another book of his. Abnett's Primarchs seem to be pretty weak.
Seems a fair summary, i guess i want my superhumans superhuman and not all the writers do.
ADB's Primarchs weak? In betrayer Lorgar gets hit in the face with a Titan's plasma cannon and lives, Angron gets stamped on by said Titan and topples the thing over. Pretty sure he also crumpes one using Psychic powers in the same book. That doesn't scream weak to me.
The thing with the Primarch's is that the writer's have to put them in some peril, or they just become boring. Guilliman didn't come across as weak to me, he was just written into situations at a disadvantage to make it more interesting.
If a bolter penetrates the skin, it will blow your hand off. That's just an artifact of how bolters work and how flesh works.
If a lascannon battery fires at you, it can miss.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Invincible super humans run the risk of being boring. If there was never a risk of bodily harm, there would be no excitement. Also, wounding a super powerful character is a good way to incite the feeling of danger and drama.
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
The thing with the Primarch's is that the writer's have to put them in some peril, or they just become boring. Guilliman didn't come across as weak to me, he was just written into situations at a disadvantage to make it more interesting.
I guess that is what is required to make them less superhuman, situations that even they cannot cope with.
The attitude towards the primarchs also seems pretty inconsistent. The first few HH books show the primarchs as like shining lights that even their own marines struggle to even gaze upon. By the end they seem have lost a lot of this mysticism
WolfSmerf wrote: I have been nervous to post this due to peoples' love of the fluff but here we go. I mean no offence, it just struck me as i read them back again.
Dont be nervous, you are right. The books are painfuly inconsistent...sometimes to point where its ridiculous. So its better to read BL because of certain authors, not events. Sometimes its just dumb, badly written book...and sometimes great piece of fluff
Being optimistic´s worthless if it means ignoring the suffering of this world. Worse than worthless. It´s bloody evil.
- Fiddler
Formosa wrote: well he is unarmoured, unarmed and was taken by surprise. this is enough for him to be taken down alone, but he wasnt, thats pretty beast alone
Not to be pedantic, but he was armoured during this fight (bar his helm and a gauntlet). He was unarmed, though. They probably weren't run of the mill Astartes that jumped him, as they'd been sent on their mission with the express intention of killing a Primarch. You'd send your best and most capable along, right?
You are presenting this issue as if all the Primarchs should be equally strong, equally fast, equally good generals and equally sly/sneaky.
This is obviously not the case as each Primarch has his own specialty. So why are you surprised when it turns out that they are not equals??
Or more to the point; is this about Guilliman (and you disappointment in his martial prowess) or about inconsistencies between the "power-level" of the Primarchs?
...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/22 23:16:10
-------------------------------------------------------
"He died because he had no honor. He had no honor and the Emperor was watching."
Formosa wrote: well he is unarmoured, unarmed and was taken by surprise. this is enough for him to be taken down alone, but he wasnt, thats pretty beast alone
Not to be pedantic, but he was armoured during this fight (bar his helm and a gauntlet). He was unarmed, though. They probably weren't run of the mill Astartes that jumped him, as they'd been sent on their mission with the express intention of killing a Primarch. You'd send your best and most capable along, right?
I say enamoured as he wasn't wearing his power armour, just some ceremonial one
Mr Nobody wrote: Invincible super humans run the risk of being boring. If there was never a risk of bodily harm, there would be no excitement. Also, wounding a super powerful character is a good way to incite the feeling of danger and drama.
This. Honestly, I can't believe that people are actually complaining that the primarchs aren't invincible enough.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
WolfSmerf wrote: I have been nervous to post this due to peoples' love of the fluff but here we go. I mean no offence, it just struck me as i read them back again.
In Unremembered Empire Guilliman is attacked by 9 (from my memory) traitors in his office. Now he is variously wounded and the focus is on the difficultly of the fight for him. In the Battle of Calth he was put in his place by Kor Phaeron (briefly). This all seems unlikely for such a supreme warrior (i am a big fan before i offend any Ultramarine players)
Other times the primarchs have variously waded through a sea of humanity without a scratch or been considered unkillable unless it is by another primarch.
Anyone else feel there is a lack of consistency in the primarchs abilities/strengths? Angron would have squashed those 9 without a second thought. Is it just to allow a tiny amount of story development? Were they made too superhuman?
I think there's just a collaborative HH writer team effort to gak all over Guilliman and the Ultras.
Though on one hand I suppose he at least wasn't killed by a shuriken pistol or a fork, on the other he wasn't made into a super regenerating immortal either and strongest of everyone.
I think there's just a collaborative HH writer team effort to gak all over Guilliman and the Ultras.
Though on one hand I suppose he at least wasn't killed by a shuriken pistol or a fork, on the other he wasn't made into a super regenerating immortal either and strongest of everyone.
Wait, so he's being gakked over (amusingly, the autocensor doesn't work when quoting) if he's not marty stu'd?
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
I think there's just a collaborative HH writer team effort to gak all over Guilliman and the Ultras.
Though on one hand I suppose he at least wasn't killed by a shuriken pistol or a fork, on the other he wasn't made into a super regenerating immortal either and strongest of everyone.
Wait, so he's being gakked over (amusingly, the autocensor doesn't work when quoting) if he's not marty stu'd?
No, just that anytime he's shown up in a book he's had the crap beaten out of him - except maybe the First Heretic but even there he got knocked on his behind.
Why wouldn't he be? He's just in stasis, and by the Codex it appears he's healing. The only Loyalist Primarch we can certainly bet on never returning, ever, is Ferrus Manus. I don't buy into it, but it's possible even Sanguinius may have survived as that weird Blood Angel Sanguinor hero-guy-person-thing-ghost.
“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
Why wouldn't he be? He's just in stasis, and by the Codex it appears he's healing. The only Loyalist Primarch we can certainly bet on never returning, ever, is Ferrus Manus. I don't buy into it, but it's possible even Sanguinius may have survived as that weird Blood Angel Sanguinor hero-guy-person-thing-ghost.
You didn't get the joke.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Or more to the point; is this about Guilliman (and you disappointment in his martial prowess) or about inconsistencies between the "power-level" of the Primarchs
I understand they all have different abilities etc, isn't alpharius a midget compared to the rest? Guilliman was my example but it applies to all, the concept of the primarchs lacks consistency rather than a specific character or ability. L
It's not about if they are invincible, just always the same level of invincible or awe inspiring. To be fair I realise my whole debate is flawed due to it being collaboratively written but I was interested in other opinions
Well, having just finished reading The Unremembered Empire, I was most put out by space Batman's invulnerability. The Lion slices him to within an inch of his life without suffering too badly, yet when both he and Guilliman have a crack at the same time, they come across as impotent as newly recruited Guardsmen.
And then super sneaky woo terror ghost gets smacked about by crazy Vulkan and shrugs it off...
In betrayer Lorgar gets hit in the face with a Titan's plasma cannon and lives,
And would have been disabled for the rest of his life if he hadn't had access to sorcery that could rejuvenate him, though amusingly enough Lorgar's warp-aided healing is considerably slower than Fulgrim's natural healing in The Mirror Crack'd.
Angron gets stamped on by said Titan and topples the thing over.
Angron barely held back a 450 ton machine (I could calculate a ballpark figure of what it hit him with by stepping down if I wanted), compared to in False Gods where he basically through a mountain off of him with might so great that Loken thought an enormous bomb had went off.
Pretty sure he also crumpes one using Psychic powers in the same book. That doesn't scream weak to me.
Lorgar did destroy a Warhound telekinetically, yes, that was impressive.
The thing with the Primarch's is that the writer's have to put them in some peril, or they just become boring. Guilliman didn't come across as weak to me, he was just written into situations at a disadvantage to make it more interesting.
This is a disingenuous train of thought and I'll tell you why.
We already know, for a certainty, that Roboute is going to survive the Heresy. BL changing that is highly unlikely. We similarly know, for an absolute fact, that Sanguinius can't die until he fights Horus on his battle barge. We know that six of the traitor Primarchs similarly won't die at all, since they are still alive and well in the 41st Millennium.
Did you really think "Oh wow Guilliman might have bitten off more than he could chew" when you read that scene? Of course you didn't, because you knew for a fact that he would survive.
I don't really have a problem with Abnett making his Primarchs fairly weak, and when ADB does it it only bothers me because it's internally inconsistent.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: If a bolter penetrates the skin, it will blow your hand off. That's just an artifact of how bolters work and how flesh works.
If a lascannon battery fires at you, it can miss.
This can't be directed at me, because you seem to have entirely missed the point of my posts, yet I can think of no one else it would apply to.
I am not disputing a bolter being able to blow up hands, I am disputing it's ability to cleanly penetrate the hand of a Primarch considering what they have survived when written by ADB.
The lascannons fired at Corax didn't miss. They hit him dead and center in the chest, and he powered through it.
Lorgar in the same book survives a Plasma Blast Gun (Albeit heavily wounded), yet can be killed by bolter fire? Nah dude, dude nah. That's just inconsistent, which really, is something I've learned to expect of the amateurish ADB.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Nobody wrote: Invincible super humans run the risk of being boring. If there was never a risk of bodily harm, there would be no excitement. Also, wounding a super powerful character is a good way to incite the feeling of danger and drama.
It can be done without making the Primarchs weak though (Or more accurately, making them weak for the sake of plot, which is when they are sometimes portrayed as really powerful but then made to be feebs so you can inject a sense of superficial "drama" into the narrative). Like in Fear to Tread, where Sanguinius spends half the book in a coma after his first fight with Ka'Bhanda, but isn't made to look like a punk to do so.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/23 21:40:45
1250 Points of The Prodigal Sons 
Crimson Fist- 9,000+
30K Imperial Fists- 2100 
18.000 
3.500 
8.200 
3.300 
3.100 
5.500 
3.200 
3.000
