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I've always been curious about Warmachine and finally decided to get into it. This is my first list at 35 points. Looking for constructive comments and help, what works and what doesn't work, I know PoM relies heavily on synergy, more so than the other factions to be successful.

High Exemplar Kreoss

2x Devout
2x Crusader
Revenger

2x Choir of Menoth
Exemplar Errant
Exemplar Errant Officer and Standard

Vassal Mechanik


I have a feeling i've left myself open to heavy infantry, or even spam infantry. (For the record, I have no idea what i'm talking about, still trying to piece the game together fully)

I honestly think your taking far too many jacks. I'd rather go for zealots or bastions

A hierophant is also a good investment. And I can't stress how awesome Paladins of the order of the wall are.

2x Devouts - Devouts are a defensive jack in a pretty offensive based game. They can be good, hell they're very useful with our larger based casters (especially the new epic Reznik coming out), but generally you'll want more offensive power for many casters, including Kreoss1*. Keep him behind the front lines, and hide him from enemy fire where possible, and he should be pretty safe. At any rate, never more than one devout when you do take them, as it's usually just that one important shot you need him to take at most.

2xCrusader - Crusaders are ok jacks, cheap but powerful, but you'll get far more from Kreoss1 with ranged shooting jacks, and some of our 8 point heavies. Kreoss1 likes to use his feat to knock everyone down, then shoot the enemy caster repeatedly, to assassinate them (or just shoot a bunch of troops to go for attrition).

You also have too many jacks for Kreoss to handle, I think. He's got 7 Focus, but he wants to cast some spells (especially Lamentations and Defenders Ward, and occasionally Purification), and each jack will want one or more focus in a turn, which will leave you very short. Lets talk about how to fix that.

Firstly, Jacks. I'd look into the Redeemer light jack - it's excellent with Kreoss, as it's 3 usually innaccurate shots can hit very easily when enemies are knocked down. It gives you the range and power to reach out and kill enemies nearly anywhere on feat turn, and before that it can spam out blast damage to hurt infantry. A Repenter jack is also a good light for Kreoss, as it needs very little focus in a game generally, so it's easy to run, and can be pretty awesome with Kreoss1's feat.

Heavy wise, look into the Reckoner, Vanquisher, or even the Templar (not ranged, but a very solid jack) would be excellent options for Kreoss1. Reckoners are excellent assassination jacks - fast, excellent and accurate shooting and reach mean they can smash heavies and assassinate with the best, but they're very focus intensive. Vanquishers mean while are a little slower and shorter ranged, but with a Vassal can put out two huge auto-fire AOEs a turn, decimating infantry with ease, and they generally don't need as much focus to run. At 35, I'd generally recommend at least a couple of heavies, just for Armor cracking.

Now, for jacks you'll probably only want to take 3, mayyybe 4 at most, to avoid being short changed on focus - too many jack and they can't operate efficiently. So to try to help that, change out the Vassal Mechanic with some Wracks - they're basically a free extra focus a turn. If you don't like Wracks, a Heirophant can do something similar (albeit a little more expensively).

Now, with the Choir, if you take less than 4 jacks, you only need a single min-choir to keep them going (each choir member can buff one jack remember). So the points you save on the second choir can go into some different jack support. I'd look into the Vassal of Menoth (not to be confused with the Vassal Mechanic). The Vassal is the other half of our excellent jack support, and makes our jacks just that much better again (expectantly for Kreoss1, where an extra ranged attack can mean a dead enemy caster).

As for Paladins - they're alright too, but really need Vilmon and two of them to shine. They basically replace a heavy jack points wise (and they're big hitters), but they're a bit more defensive generally. I'd probably stick with the ranged heavies for Kreoss1, and try out the Paladins with other casters.

Infantry wise, Errants+UA are excellent, and work with Kreoss1 brilliantly.

I might suggest if you're very new to the game that you start with a few battlebox games - they're not that balanced, but they make learning the core game rules pretty easy, then try progressively larger games to get a handle on the game. Good luck, and have faith in the True Law

*in case you don't know the lingo, "p" or "1" in a casters name indicates their "prime" incarnation.

 Maddermax wrote:
2x Devouts - Devouts are a defensive jack in a pretty offensive based game. They can be good, hell they're very useful with our larger based casters (especially the new epic Reznik coming out), but generally you'll want more offensive power for many casters, including Kreoss1*. Keep him behind the front lines, and hide him from enemy fire where possible, and he should be pretty safe. At any rate, never more than one devout when you do take them, as it's usually just that one important shot you need him to take at most.

2xCrusader - Crusaders are ok jacks, cheap but powerful, but you'll get far more from Kreoss1 with ranged shooting jacks, and some of our 8 point heavies. Kreoss1 likes to use his feat to knock everyone down, then shoot the enemy caster repeatedly, to assassinate them (or just shoot a bunch of troops to go for attrition).

You also have too many jacks for Kreoss to handle, I think. He's got 7 Focus, but he wants to cast some spells (especially Lamentations and Defenders Ward, and occasionally Purification), and each jack will want one or more focus in a turn, which will leave you very short. Lets talk about how to fix that.

Firstly, Jacks. I'd look into the Redeemer light jack - it's excellent with Kreoss, as it's 3 usually innaccurate shots can hit very easily when enemies are knocked down. It gives you the range and power to reach out and kill enemies nearly anywhere on feat turn, and before that it can spam out blast damage to hurt infantry. A Repenter jack is also a good light for Kreoss, as it needs very little focus in a game generally, so it's easy to run, and can be pretty awesome with Kreoss1's feat.

Heavy wise, look into the Reckoner, Vanquisher, or even the Templar (not ranged, but a very solid jack) would be excellent options for Kreoss1. Reckoners are excellent assassination jacks - fast, excellent and accurate shooting and reach mean they can smash heavies and assassinate with the best, but they're very focus intensive. Vanquishers mean while are a little slower and shorter ranged, but with a Vassal can put out two huge auto-fire AOEs a turn, decimating infantry with ease, and they generally don't need as much focus to run. At 35, I'd generally recommend at least a couple of heavies, just for Armor cracking.

Now, for jacks you'll probably only want to take 3, mayyybe 4 at most, to avoid being short changed on focus - too many jack and they can't operate efficiently. So to try to help that, change out the Vassal Mechanic with some Wracks - they're basically a free extra focus a turn. If you don't like Wracks, a Heirophant can do something similar (albeit a little more expensively).

Now, with the Choir, if you take less than 4 jacks, you only need a single min-choir to keep them going (each choir member can buff one jack remember). So the points you save on the second choir can go into some different jack support. I'd look into the Vassal of Menoth (not to be confused with the Vassal Mechanic). The Vassal is the other half of our excellent jack support, and makes our jacks just that much better again (expectantly for Kreoss1, where an extra ranged attack can mean a dead enemy caster).

As for Paladins - they're alright too, but really need Vilmon and two of them to shine. They basically replace a heavy jack points wise (and they're big hitters), but they're a bit more defensive generally. I'd probably stick with the ranged heavies for Kreoss1, and try out the Paladins with other casters.

Infantry wise, Errants+UA are excellent, and work with Kreoss1 brilliantly.

I might suggest if you're very new to the game that you start with a few battlebox games - they're not that balanced, but they make learning the core game rules pretty easy, then try progressively larger games to get a handle on the game. Good luck, and have faith in the True Law

*in case you don't know the lingo, "p" or "1" in a casters name indicates their "prime" incarnation.

My whole ideal behind the jacks, was to protect my choir with devouts, have my crusaders do my heavy bashing, and the last for arc point for Kreoss' feat which would allow me to run about and smash em up, without anything vital being in danger. I also have 2 choirs to play 2 different Hymms at once, securing my advance from magical and ranged.

My errants were meant to counter flanking units to my choirs while kreoss could potentially hold his own for a turn if needed until a devout or even the revenger could turn and deliver it's death.

So I guess here is the real question... is it worth getting 2 choirs for 2 different hymms, or just run 1 choir for 3-4 jacks and grab some more errants or a vassal?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
List revised:


List 1

High Exemplar Kreoss

Redeemer
2xReckoner

Exemplar Errants
Exemplar Errant Officer and Standard
2x Choir of Menoth

Vassal Mechanik
2x Vassal of Menoth
Exemplar Errant Seneshal

List 2

High Exemplar Kreoss

Redeemer
2xReckoner

2x Exemplar Errants
Exemplar Errant Officer and Standard
Choir of Menoth

Vassal of Menoth
Exemplar Errant Seneshal

List 3

High Exemplar Kreoss

Redeemer
2xReckoner

Full Exemplar Errants
Exemplar Errant Officer and Standard
Choir of Menoth

2x Vassal of Menoth
Exemplar Errant Seneshal

Am I getting hotter or colder with these lists?

 Rhomen wrote:

 Maddermax wrote:
2x Devouts - Devouts are a defensive jack in a pretty offensive based game. They can be good, hell they're very useful with our larger based casters (especially the new epic Reznik coming out), but generally you'll want more offensive power for many casters, including Kreoss1*. Keep him behind the front lines, and hide him from enemy fire where possible, and he should be pretty safe. At any rate, never more than one devout when you do take them, as it's usually just that one important shot you need him to take at most.

2xCrusader - Crusaders are ok jacks, cheap but powerful, but you'll get far more from Kreoss1 with ranged shooting jacks, and some of our 8 point heavies. Kreoss1 likes to use his feat to knock everyone down, then shoot the enemy caster repeatedly, to assassinate them (or just shoot a bunch of troops to go for attrition).

You also have too many jacks for Kreoss to handle, I think. He's got 7 Focus, but he wants to cast some spells (especially Lamentations and Defenders Ward, and occasionally Purification), and each jack will want one or more focus in a turn, which will leave you very short. Lets talk about how to fix that.

Firstly, Jacks. I'd look into the Redeemer light jack - it's excellent with Kreoss, as it's 3 usually innaccurate shots can hit very easily when enemies are knocked down. It gives you the range and power to reach out and kill enemies nearly anywhere on feat turn, and before that it can spam out blast damage to hurt infantry. A Repenter jack is also a good light for Kreoss, as it needs very little focus in a game generally, so it's easy to run, and can be pretty awesome with Kreoss1's feat.

Heavy wise, look into the Reckoner, Vanquisher, or even the Templar (not ranged, but a very solid jack) would be excellent options for Kreoss1. Reckoners are excellent assassination jacks - fast, excellent and accurate shooting and reach mean they can smash heavies and assassinate with the best, but they're very focus intensive. Vanquishers mean while are a little slower and shorter ranged, but with a Vassal can put out two huge auto-fire AOEs a turn, decimating infantry with ease, and they generally don't need as much focus to run. At 35, I'd generally recommend at least a couple of heavies, just for Armor cracking.

Now, for jacks you'll probably only want to take 3, mayyybe 4 at most, to avoid being short changed on focus - too many jack and they can't operate efficiently. So to try to help that, change out the Vassal Mechanic with some Wracks - they're basically a free extra focus a turn. If you don't like Wracks, a Heirophant can do something similar (albeit a little more expensively).

Now, with the Choir, if you take less than 4 jacks, you only need a single min-choir to keep them going (each choir member can buff one jack remember). So the points you save on the second choir can go into some different jack support. I'd look into the Vassal of Menoth (not to be confused with the Vassal Mechanic). The Vassal is the other half of our excellent jack support, and makes our jacks just that much better again (expectantly for Kreoss1, where an extra ranged attack can mean a dead enemy caster).

As for Paladins - they're alright too, but really need Vilmon and two of them to shine. They basically replace a heavy jack points wise (and they're big hitters), but they're a bit more defensive generally. I'd probably stick with the ranged heavies for Kreoss1, and try out the Paladins with other casters.

Infantry wise, Errants+UA are excellent, and work with Kreoss1 brilliantly.

I might suggest if you're very new to the game that you start with a few battlebox games - they're not that balanced, but they make learning the core game rules pretty easy, then try progressively larger games to get a handle on the game. Good luck, and have faith in the True Law

*in case you don't know the lingo, "p" or "1" in a casters name indicates their "prime" incarnation.

My whole ideal behind the jacks, was to protect my choir with devouts, have my crusaders do my heavy bashing, and the last for arc point for Kreoss' feat which would allow me to run about and smash em up, without anything vital being in danger. I also have 2 choirs to play 2 different Hymms at once, securing my advance from magical and ranged.

My errants were meant to counter flanking units to my choirs while kreoss could potentially hold his own for a turn if needed until a devout or even the revenger could turn and deliver it's death.

So I guess here is the real question... is it worth getting 2 choirs for 2 different hymms, or just run 1 choir for 3-4 jacks and grab some more errants or a vassal?

Well, you cannot target the same jack with two hyms, so while it would allow you to, say, target half your jacks with one hymn, and half your jacks with a different hymn, it's usually not worth the extra couple of points - every point in this game is important, and to be honest you'll rarely want to use more than one hymn a turn anyway (either no spells or no shooting on all jacks in the lead up, then battle for damage when you start doing damage).

Now, Choir members are 1/2 a point a pop. Having 5 point jacks protecting them is never necessary - if you find your choir members dying, just remember to keep them back and, if necessary, buy a max choir next time. They can happily stay up to 9" back from your jacks, and still be effective (6" move, 3" hymn). Plus, if enemies are shooting at my 1/2 point choir members, I'm laughing, as they're not shooting at more important targets like my caster (often you only need one or two choir members alive to buff the right jacks, in these cases, and slaughter the enemy on the counter attack). Devouts are there for one reason - protecting your caster. With a small based caster like Kreoss1, he's usually reasonably easy to hide, behind infantry and jacks, so having the Devouts are usually unnecessary - though if you find yourself dying to ranged assassinations a lot, you can throw one in to try it out.

Now, Revenger and the Feat. Revenger's cannot ark Feats, only spells, and even then it can't be used with Lamentations or Purification (god that would be good if he could) because SELF spells can't be arc'd. The Feat is always centred on Kreoss - and honestly, if you have more than two jacks, you'd often be better assigning focus to them to shoot, rather than casting his offensive spells. Offensive spells are, for most casters (outside of a select few who are really good at it...), something to use in desperate situations - a ranged Magic attack when you have nothing else to throw. Think about it - his Cleaning Fire costs 3 Focus for a POW 14 - while a Redeemer can fire 3 POW 14s (under Choir hymn) for only 2 focus (and boost one if he has a third focus), and then get a 4th shot from a Vassal if needed. Jacks are more focus efficient for attacking like that. The other thing is, with too many jacks you have no focus left for Arcing spells anyway - lets say 2 to upkeep spells, leaves you with 5 left, 6 if you have Wracks, that's two boosted damage POW 12s on feat turn, and 0 focus for your jacks, which means they'll do next to nothing on feat turn. The Revenger isn't a bad jack, it's actually a lot of fun, and quite useful in battle box games and with some casters like Severius (who LOVES slinging spells), but it's generally hard to find the focus to really make a dent if you're running Kreoss.

Crusaders - they're good cheap jacks, but they really really have short effective range. They only go 7" on the charge (which is as slow as things get in this game), don't have reach or a ranged weapon, which leaves them at the mercy of anything that's faster that can get in and do damage. They're best taken when you can't find 2 extra points to spend on one of our 8 point heavies, when given a points discount in some theme forces (like Harbingers), or when their speed is buffed to make them bigger threats (like with Amon). A Templar has Reach (giving a 9" threat range) and Beatback to let it move further to juicer targets, as does the faster Reckoner (10" melee threat range, and a great gun), the Vanquisher is usually just walking and firing twice a turn with the vassal (10" gun, 4" move) and the Redeemer threatens 21" with it's rockets (16" range, 5" move), though it's only going to hit anything on feat turn (though scatters can really hurt infantry). Now, if you get a battle box and a Crusader/Templar/Vanquisher multikit, you can use the extra arms from the Kit with your Crusader from the Battle Box to make up something like a Vanquisher and Templar combo - a cheap way to start. Personally, I magnetized my two first heavies, so I could run different combinations when I wanted. Anyway...

Finally, Kreoss holding his own - really really don't count on this. If your enemy wants to kill Kreoss, and he's not camping most of his Focus to boost his ARM (and therefore you're not getting the benefit of that focus), he will die to any sort of concentrated effort, even if he has Defenders Ward on him. Keeping your caster safe is one of the first things you have to learn in Warmachine - they seem tough, but enemies can put out a surprising amount of damage on them if you're not careful. Keep him back, behind your jacks and errants, and even choir and support models if need be, only put him forward when you'll catch most of his army, or his caster, in his feat, and even then, watch your placement of him. Kreoss1 is not actually a beatstick compared to many other casters, he's a support and assassination caster (his epic incarnations, Kreoss 2 and 3, are much better at getting up close and personal).

Hope that helps somewhat - the game is actually much simpler that I'm letting on, and strange combinations can often work, but starting with the basics can help you learn the game a little faster


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rhomen wrote:

List revised:


List 1

High Exemplar Kreoss

Redeemer
2xReckoner

Exemplar Errants
Exemplar Errant Officer and Standard
2x Choir of Menoth

Vassal Mechanik
2x Vassal of Menoth
Exemplar Errant Seneshal

List 2

High Exemplar Kreoss

Redeemer
2xReckoner

2x Exemplar Errants
Exemplar Errant Officer and Standard
Choir of Menoth

Vassal of Menoth
Exemplar Errant Seneshal

List 3

High Exemplar Kreoss

Redeemer
2xReckoner

Full Exemplar Errants
Exemplar Errant Officer and Standard
Choir of Menoth

2x Vassal of Menoth
Exemplar Errant Seneshal

Am I getting hotter or colder with these lists?

Much much hotter. Thrid list looks great as an assassination vehicle (Kreoss1's feat is often referred to as the "Pop and Drop", pop feat, drop caster, kill caster ). Second list - I'd usually take the max unit of Errants over two min units any day, as Kreoss' Defenders Ward only targets one unit, so make it big.

Only question is whether you want more infantry clearing with a Vanquisher instead of the second Reckoner (I personally like it, though double Reckoners are quite popular on him too). You could also change out the Senechal with Wracks and a Mechanik or with a Heirophant if you find you're short of focus.

So having 2 choir is basically useless. Noted.

Now i'm considering dropping 1 jack for some more errants+UA while having the senshal positioned for both to benefit. (I think i'm starting to figure out this synergy stuff)
then I would also drop a Vassal of Menoth to fit in the Errants as well....

I think keeping the Reckoners will triumph over the Vanquisher. Go big or go home strategy > Attrition

I would build a different list for attrition... lots of flames...

Second unit of Errants can't have a U/A, as it's FA1 ( only one allowed). Without the U/A or Def Ward support, I'd go with something like Zealots with U/A, which function much better indepently, but that's only If you decide to drop a Reckoner.

And if you want attrition and flames, look into eFeora for flaming death, especially with a Redeemer or Judicator with her Jack Bond - flames everywhere!

Thanks, you've been a big help! Now to go find a retailer to buy all these goodies and paint them up.

Here is a typical 50 pt pKreoss list, built around his strengths. Which is using his feat to enable shooting, either by killing a bunch of the enemy army or assassinating the caster.


pKreoss
-Redeemer
-Vanquisher
-Reckoner
-Heirophant

min Choir
max Errants with UA
max Zealots with UA

Rhupert Carvolo the Piper of Ord(merc)
Taryn di la Rhovissi(merc)
Covenant of Menoth
Vassal
epic Eiryss(merc)


The Piper and the Covenant give the Errants Tough and provide no knockdown. With Defenders Ward and Tough Errants are very hard to kill.

On Feat turn, you'll have 3 pow14 shots, 1 pow15, and 1 pow16, plus one more shot of any of them, you can put basically whereever you want.

Eiryss is there to strip Focus off a knocked down caster. She can also take away an upkeep if you don't want to cast Purification that turn too.

Taryn is there in case the enemy caster is hiding behind a model that can't be knocked down, such as a Colossal or Battle Engine. Her Shadow Fire ability makes the model hit not block LoS. She's also decent at killing small based models or freeing up your own engaged models from melee with her Black Penny shot.

I'll look into this 50pt list. I believe most of the shops around where I live play warmahordes at 35 for fun and tournament. Not to mention the guy I usually play TT with just put together a CoC 35 pt list.

Played my first game with:

High Exemplar Kreoss

2x Reckoner
1x Redeemer

Full Errants with UA
Min Choir

2x Vassals
1x Errant Seneschal


Against a CoC army with 6 jacks crammed into 35 points and some nasty heavy infantry that side step and continue shredding...

The game was close I lost due to a last ditch effort to bring down Syntherion with Kreoss' feat, I might drop a vassal and maybe the redeemer to fit some more troops into the fray.

The Redeemer did do reasonably well with so little troops on the field... I think i'm just going to need the ability to field some heavy soldiers to take care of what I need them to.

Reckoners did the majority of the heavy lifting, need to figure out the fire rules more clearly though. I feel as if there could have been more damage put out from them.

No complaints from any of the errants

The vassals were worth the points I smashed up a heavy jack with one of my reckoners with the extra hit provided. But I could maybe throw some more troops down without one and the seneschal
Choir is worth the points, ability to move up unscathed was amazing.