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I currently have a Ages(sp) Line with the quad laser. Didn't feel it served me too well as I got eaten up by flamers and in general the wall wasn't worth the points IMO, that being said it could of just been the fact that I was rolling for crap.
Anyway what if any forts do you use or if you don't play Marines what can they put on the table that makes you hate.

Fortifications aren't limited to space marines or such, they are perfectly purchasable by anyone. Its just gets weird and iffy with Tyranids. Anyways, just one Aegis defense line or Bastion is kind of limited. A whole Imperial Strongpoint, Wall of Martyrs Network or Fortress of Redemption should work out as a set.

One of ANYTHING in Warhammer is relatively easy to deal with. Its when the opponent has several (like AV 14 buildings with ridiculous building rules) that they become more difficult.

In example, I play imperial guard, and have been taking the Imperial Strongpoint (1-3 Defence lines, 1-3 bastions) and been buying the quad guns. Gun Emplacements bought for buildings and placed on battlements count as additional emplaced guns for the building. Therefore the people inside, immune to fire, can man it. So when compared to the 75 point AV12 Hydra Skyfire, is completely outclassed by a 75 point Bastion with 50 point Quad Gun, because the Bastion is AV14, with Skyfire AND interceptor.

To me, the biggest weakness of the Defense Lines defensive guns is that the people manning it are exposed to anti-cover save fire. And once the gun is unmanned, its wasted points.

Don't Forget that for a small amount of points you can give your Bastion a Void Shield that will protect it's inhabitants from HelDrakes.

Just take a skyshield if your covered in the AA area. Otherwise you will need to do a imperial stronghold.

With the new building and fortifications options in Stronghold Assault, the Imperial Bunker has become my new favorite in most of my armies. AV14 medium building that can have upgrades for the unit inside as well as things like an emplaced quad gun. With the special rules for it's fire points, a good unit of devastators can benefit greatly from it. Likewise, a Bastion has turned into a really good form of protection for lascannon/missile centurion devastators.

If you REALLY want some anti-air support, you may want to look into a Firestorm Redoubt. It's expensive points-wise but has a similar special rule for it's firepoints that the Bunker has which makes it great for a devastator squad as well.

The largest issue with fortifications is that they are placed prior to terrain which allows your opponent to minimize them rather easily depending on how you decide to place terrain and if there's larger, LOS blocking pieces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One more quick thought - infiltrators can be deployed into fortifications, and fortifications can be deployed anywhere on your own table half. This could a good way to infiltrate and protect your scouts a bit without leaving them in the open. Put a bunker 6-8" out of your deployment zone and you have a great, fortified location for you to start sniping out the opponent.

The short answer is devistator squads behind an aegis. They have the range to not care about mobility and 3+/4+ gets annoying.

infiltrators can be deployed into fortifications
and
fortifications can be placed outside your deployment zone on your side of the table

that is good to know, thanks for pointing that out.

sand.zzz wrote:
infiltrators can be deployed into fortifications
and
fortifications can be placed outside your deployment zone on your side of the table

that is good to know, thanks for pointing that out.

This is why I bring Rangers. You roll a second time for who deploys infiltrators first. It is a 50/50 shot you will get out infiltrated. Servo skulls and the chooser of the slain prevent infiltration. There are a lot of ways this can backfire.

Am I missing any difference between the Imperial bunker and the Imperial Bastion?

Both are the same AV, have fire points and can take a gun.
One is just more expensive than the other thanks to a few heavy bolters.

 minigun762 wrote:
Am I missing any difference between the Imperial bunker and the Imperial Bastion?

Both are the same AV, have fire points and can take a gun.
One is just more expensive than the other thanks to a few heavy bolters.

Bunker is 20pts cheaper, has 4 access points (top, back, and each side), and allows for 4 models to fire out of it's 2, front-facing fire points (8 models total)

Bastion has 2 access point (top and side), emplaced heavy bolters, and 2 fire points per side that allow only 1 model to fire out of each point.


So Bunker is good for front facing fire points at ground level (and being cheaper). Bastion is good for a better angle from the battlements and to be able to fire weapons on all 4 sides. Technically both allow for 8 models to fire from it (9 if you include the emplaced gun on top); however, the bastion is 2-3 at max per side while the bunker is all 8 out front. If you block the access point to the bastion and cause a collapse, the unit inside is lost since it cannot escape. To do the same with the Bunker, you need to cover access points on 3 different facings instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dessorag wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
infiltrators can be deployed into fortifications
and
fortifications can be placed outside your deployment zone on your side of the table

that is good to know, thanks for pointing that out.

This is why I bring Rangers. You roll a second time for who deploys infiltrators first. It is a 50/50 shot you will get out infiltrated. Servo skulls and the chooser of the slain prevent infiltration. There are a lot of ways this can backfire.

One way to mitigate being out infiltrated with fortifications is to make sure you have a unit still deployed within 12" of your fortification normally. Infiltrating into a building can only be done if the building is not within 12" of an enemy unit. This will not put your scouts right up against your enemy but it will give them another good 8" out of your deployment zone for their 36" sniper rifles.

i enjoy using the ADL for my crimson fist army having 2 dev squads behind it. I just love having a tank hunter Quad gun

I dont have my book on hand but i though the bunker allowed 4 shooters per fire point with it having 2 fire points.

allowing for 8 total shots.

ether way though 4 shots is enough for some devs.

 Desubot wrote:
I dont have my book on hand but i though the bunker allowed 4 shooters per fire point with it having 2 fire points.

allowing for 8 total shots.

ether way though 4 shots is enough for some devs.

Correct. If you take the emplaced quad gun or lascannon, it turns into 9 models inside that are able to shoot (8 out of the fire points and 1 firing the emplaced weapon).

Bunker seems to be a better replacement for the ADL now that cover ignoring weapons are more common.

 minigun762 wrote:
Bunker seems to be a better replacement for the ADL now that cover ignoring weapons are more common.

Yes and No. For general "ignores cover", fortifications are better.

However, for any template weapons (including torrent flamer weapons), fortifications can be worse since the template has to only hit 1 fire point and the unit inside gets hit for D6 hits (in addition to the building getting hit which probably isn't a big deal for the building). So potential is worse than normally spreading out your unit. Grenades are a bit similar; however, they are not as bad since the unit with grenades have to be assaulting the building in order to throw them into the fire points.

Good point, however the building also protects you from annoying vector strikers who would also ignore your cover.

No choice is perfect but bunker seems to be a better TAC choice.

Then again if you're more concerned about firepower over durability, I'd take the weapon batteries.

 minigun762 wrote:
Good point, however the building also protects you from annoying vector strikers who would also ignore your cover.

No choice is perfect but bunker seems to be a better TAC choice.

Then again if you're more concerned about firepower over durability, I'd take the weapon batteries.

Yea the weapon batteries are can be pretty good - especially with the lascannon option.

As for the bunker, I think the absolute worse thing for it is a unit of obliterators deep striking by it and using heavy flamers on it. Battlement will probably be cleared and D6 per template inside is going to be mean. If they clear it out, then the next turn they move in which is the opposite of what you want to happen but that's about the worst case scenario that I've seen thus far. Love playing with my Bunker beyond the 1 CSM player that knows that trick.

I suppose that a bonus for the ADL is it's easier to use with other vehicles. On the other hand,  bunkers and bastions help provide additional AV saturation.

I've often considered a Bastion to help hide a Land Raider and dilute incoming fire.

How about the firestorm redoubt, I've considered getting one and giving it two punisher cannons and the machine spirit uppgrade making it BS3. It ahould be fun against hordes with 40 S5 shots hitting on threes.and you can still have 6 guys shooting out of the fire point.

 Dantioch wrote:
How about the firestorm redoubt, I've considered getting one and giving it two punisher cannons and the machine spirit uppgrade making it BS3. It ahould be fun against hordes with 40 S5 shots hitting on threes.and you can still have 6 guys shooting out of the fire point.

It would be fun, but the low-med range and narrow viable target range does limit it somewhat.
For a static weapon, I think one has to be generous with the range of the weapon they choose because you can't compensate with movement.

 Dantioch wrote:
How about the firestorm redoubt, I've considered getting one and giving it two punisher cannons and the machine spirit uppgrade making it BS3. It ahould be fun against hordes with 40 S5 shots hitting on threes.and you can still have 6 guys shooting out of the fire point.

I haven't tried out the redoubt with the punisher gatling cannons yet; however, I have ran a pair of Vengeance Weapon Batteries with the battle cannons.

Against armies with little to no armor (nids, orks, dark eldar, etc.) they work great even though BS2 or BS3 isn't THAT effective against large units. However, as the units begin to lose their size, they are great at weakening them and getting the last few wounds to cause a morale test.

Against MEQ and better though, they are more of an annoyance to my opponent than a devastating force. The Battle cannon shines better here. They may do a couple of wounds but there's been instances where I felt lucky getting 1 MEQ to fail their save after my 20 shots. The AP- is where the gatling cannon really falls down. Against MEQ, each VWB with battle cannon is more of a tactical piece than a threatening piece as many opponents will stay away from them despite the AP- and I use them well enough as LOS blocking cover (since you can hide small units and even Venoms behind it).

The Firestorm Redoubt has the advantage of taking the BS3 upgrade as well as having troops embarked inside as well. The main guns cannot be fired manually; however, it can take a Quad Gun (or lascannon) as an emplaced weapon that can be. Pair it with the Very Wide Firepoint that allows 6 guys to fire out of it, it's not too bad but I still feel it's a bit expensive. Lastly, outfitting one with the gatling cannons can be decent if both guns target the same unit; however, it could end up being not as effective as the other 2 options.

 Unholyllama wrote:


The Firestorm Redoubt has the advantage of taking the BS3 upgrade as well as having troops embarked inside as well. The main guns cannot be fired manually; however, it can take a Quad Gun (or lascannon) as an emplaced weapon that can be. Pair it with the Very Wide Firepoint that allows 6 guys to fire out of it, it's not too bad but I still feel it's a bit expensive. Lastly, outfitting one with the gatling cannons can be decent if both guns target the same unit; however, it could end up being not as effective as the other 2 options.

Is it overkill to take an extra weapon like a quad gun? Dual quad lascannons and a quad gun seem like it's almost too many points spent on AA for most armies.

I like using my Master of the Forge as a Support HQ. I have the Master of the forge man the quad gun or the Icarus lascannon. Most of the time I only use the lascannon.

Master of the forge has Ballistic skill 5, so you're hitting on 2+

I can't tell you how many times I've pissed a guy off by blowing up his drake or whatever as soon as he enters the board. That gun has a 96" range and STR 9. It's no joke.

Keep him in a corner to prevent vector strikes.

You put him on a bastion and not only can he shoot down flyers, but you have a great chance of blowing up land raiders.

I think it's highly underrated weapon system

Skyfire can be used against skimmers, so AA points are usually not wasted against Eldar and DE.
Also, if you use Interceptor, THAT WEAPON cannot fire the next turn. If you have lots of weapons, you can shoot every turn. (check the rules for that).

 minigun762 wrote:

 Unholyllama wrote:


The Firestorm Redoubt has the advantage of taking the BS3 upgrade as well as having troops embarked inside as well. The main guns cannot be fired manually; however, it can take a Quad Gun (or lascannon) as an emplaced weapon that can be. Pair it with the Very Wide Firepoint that allows 6 guys to fire out of it, it's not too bad but I still feel it's a bit expensive. Lastly, outfitting one with the gatling cannons can be decent if both guns target the same unit; however, it could end up being not as effective as the other 2 options.

Is it overkill to take an extra weapon like a quad gun? Dual quad lascannons and a quad gun seem like it's almost too many points spent on AA for most armies.

In a sense, yes; however, unlike the other guns on the redoubt, the emplaced icarus or quadgun that you purchase can be fired manually from the unit inside. This allows you to fire 6 out of the fire point and a 7th using the gun. Also, the quad gun wouldn't be restricted to the same targeting rules as the other weapons on top (though becomes similar if set to automatic firing). While the gun is an option, I personally would probably look into taking a comms relay instead if I was to take any of that list of upgrades. This is situational of course with your play style but is cheaper and can be more useful then the gun at times.