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I've recently started playing Fantasy with Orcs and Goblins, and put simply, nothing bloody well works.

I know a lot of this will be my abyssmal skill level (seriously I don't know whats going on, games confusing) but all I've managed to do so far is blow up my wizards, miss with foot of gork, misfire my warmachines, watch my 10 deep goblin blocks flee without a fight, squabble incessantly, fail charges, and then finally when I do get a block of Black Orcs into a fight they just fail miserably (that one was the icing on the cake)

So screw playing around with this book and finding out what works, because at this rate I'll ragequit before I find it - I just wanna know whats good in here and start from that. I'm giving Savage Big'uns a go next game and trying to dig up some trolls.

So dakka, what actually works in this book? What units are worthwhile, how large a unit should I use, should they sit back or charge forward... help an utterly confused player out before he sells and goes for another army or another game entirely!

Hey mate! check out www.da-warpath.com ! edit: I remember talking a lot of 40k ork tactics with you on dakkadakka and I sure as crap know you're too smart a git to ragequit on the good green-kind!

O&G fantasy forums that you may find more help from! (plus tons of great blogs and inspiration, tactics, etc!)

As far as blowing your wizards up, don't 6 dice spells, and that won't happen! but in all seriousness, I throw 6 dice at foot in clutch moments as much as the next guy, but I try to max 4 dice spells to minimize my chances of miscasting (the 4 dice limit i impose on myself include magic mushroom die from night goblin shamans, so 3 + 1 mushroom)... I will 5-6 dice 20+ to cast spells from a wizard hat, because that's about the only way to make it go off.

Misfiring warmachines you can't really help with. That's just the luck of the roll. I've had games where I blew up both doom divers on turn 1, and blew my rock lobber up by turn 3. I've also had games where I managed to roll 18 direct hits in a row! just bad luck you're experiencing, wait a while and you'll have some good luck games with artillery dice to balance your bad ones out.

Why did your 10 deep units of goblins flee? if they have 10 ranks they should probably be steadfast unless you're fighting a bigger block of goblins, or skaven slaves, zombies or something. If they aren't going to be steadfast, they have 0 reason to be in combat. Goblins are "tarpits" they just get a killy-hammer unit like chaos knights, stuck in combat with them, so you can then flank charge them with your own hard hitting unit (like chariots, SOBUs, squigs, trolls etc)

If they were steadfast and fled still, what LD were they using? If LD5 of the normal night goblins, than thats why! O&G are highly dependent on having your generals inspiring presence provide a substantially higher LD value to units within 12" of him... (and by adding characters with higher LD to units that will be outside his 12" bubble)

you can cut down squabbling by placing units more than 6" apart. Only units of 5+ more models within 6" are valid targets to be drawn into a squabble. if YOu HAVE to deploy them cloesly, put units with no casters in them slightly closer together than then units with casters. As the animosity rule states that the closest unit and their own fight.. So the only chance your shaman bunker will squabble is if they roll a 1 on the animosity roll themselves (as opposed to having a chance of being drawin into a fight by a nearby unit who failed animosity and rolled a 1 on the chart)

as far as failing charges, you are M4! you're average roll of 7 will make you have a average charge range of 11" with goblins. I would't shoot for long charges with these guys.

I don't really use black orcs so I can't speak much about them. You could of very well had a bad matchup with them, in which case its to be expected they will lose. However if you use them in conjuction with a night goblin unit charging, you now can net the opposing unit with -1S, making it that much harder to land wounds on your T4 black orcs.

Savage bigguns are very popular, especially with a L4 shaman with lucky shrunken head, and sometimes fencers blades.

Trolls are very popular for doing the same work black orcs do.

I don't use either of those though I specifically only play the goblin side of things...

That being said.... what works from the goblin side of the book?

NIght goblin blocks with nets = great tarpits, -1S in CC to 1 unit on a 2+

Mangler squigs = tons of damage and will draw lots of fire, take 2. In fact, make 2 save 130 bucks. Couple ping pong balls and some putty, bam,

snotling pump wagons = awesome. 2D6 random movement (no charge reactions allowed) can upgrade to s5 impact hits (2d6 not d6!) and can updgrade to ignore armor saves.. they are immune to psyc... and you can have 4 in a normal size army! Plus you can fit 4 of them, 2 manglers, and plenty of artillery still!!

They will provide 4 targets, so quite a bit of saturation and redundancy going on, along with 2 manglers gives your opponents 6 oh gak units they want to kill. allowing your bigger, more point heavy, killy units, like savage orc bigguns a breather while crossing the board, and taking fewer casualties.

Squig herds, 2 WS4 S5 attacks at I3 a piece, Just expensive $$ wise. Trolls are probably better in long run.

doom divers are awesome, the D6 redirect is great. if your opponent is silly and positions 2 blocks within 30mm of one another, place template between both blocks (touching both with the 30mm template) and do d6 hits to both units... (only usefuly if your opponent places blocks 1" apart or slight more as the 30mm base is barely larger than a 25mm (1") gap.

fanatics inside night goblin units are good. especially if you shoot them through another unit that is being charge in front of them, so that the charger runs into them taking double damage... Your goblins will easily shrug off 3D6 hits, while chaos knights will cower at 6D6 of those same hits when they run into them..

sorry if this is longwinded, and again, check out da-warpath.com it really is a great repository for O&G info.

Ok, let's start with your complaints.

Missing with Foot of Gork, Misfires, Animosity and failed charges (assuming you're not being unrealistic and charging from 16" out) is just luck of the dice I'm afraid. OnG do have it worse than other armies, in a way, but it's something you've got to cope with and try and plan for!

As for the others, blowing your wizard up (whilst partly luck) can be prevented by misfiring. This spreadsheet (credit goes completely to Evertras) is a very helpful document for looking up your casting chances and chance to get IF + Miscast. As with so much in this game, it's all about weighing up risk vs reward. Ask yourself, is that 26% chance of a Miscast worth what you're trying to accomplish? Also, Ward Save items, such as the rulebook Talismans, or Warpaint + LSH if you're a S. Orc Shaman, and other items like the Earthing Rod, can be used to reduce the effects of miscasts. If you find you need them, include them.

Goblins are likely to flee, thanks to their low Leadership. This is why it is VITAL that you have a BSB and as high Ld General as you can get, in your list. You use Black Orcs, so why not use a Warboss inside the unit with the Standard of Discipline for a Ld 10 bubble. If you leave your Goblins on their own, they are likely to flee, yes, so make sure you position your General and BSB so they can give their benefits to as many units as possible, and especially those units that need it most. Finally, always include a musician, and don't forget that bonus to rally!

As for Black Orcs and them killing stuff (or not doing so), you have to be realistic. B. Orcs aren't the toughest unit in the game, so there are certain things they won't be able to beat. Remember that they're often going last and so you'll be losing a lot of bodies. Black Orcs are good at taking out fairly weak and slow units, even if they're ones that can pack a punch in return. For example, Black Orcs will maul a unit of Empire Greatswords, but they'll struggle against Nurgle Warriors with Halberds. Finally, make sure the unit is sizeable (the Razor Standard is also an option) and that you stop any magical hexes/buffs that'll tip their combats in the opponent's favour.

Ok, as for the optimum choices in the OnG book, most tournament armies will revolve around a large unit of Savage Orc Big 'Uns with a Lvl4 S.Orc Shaman with the LSH head in tow. They'll be backed up by plenty of war machines, manglers and wolf riders or lone trolls as chaff. A BSB with Spider Banner in a large unit of NG archers sitting behind your lines is a popular choice, but so is sticking the BSB up front, provided you don't end up with your General, lvl4 (potentially the same model) and BSB in the same unit. Black Orc units come in useful for this. Squigs and Pump Wagons are good units too, provided you can shell out the cash (or conversions) for them, and River or normal Trolls are also quite popular.

In short, you need to try and take advantage of what's good in your list (war machines etc), whilst minimising the risk of what's bad (low Ld etc). Pick your fights well and prioritise the dangerous enemy units.

Hope this helps, if you have any more questions, just ask!

Around us trolls vomiting in 2 ranks just eats up horde units, silly number of attacks.

For goblins what seems to work for most people is a stupid number of characters. I see lists with 20+ heros in it all fielding magic weapons of all kinds and little things like that.

The doom diver. WOW their is no army this will not hurt. Completely ignoring armor saves is huge.

Just what i have seen from the OnG players around here

What works in OnG? Let me tell you sir!

1. Wurrzag. For his points, he is a must take! Reroll all miscasts, bound spell of vindictive glare, and his own spell! That is worth taking!

2. Black Orc BSB. As a rule of thumb, your units will fail animosity and charge when you don't want them to. D6 hits is a good price to pay to negate it. The BSB part is self explanatory.

3. Savage Orc level 2 with the Shrunken Head. This will become explanatory in a few moments. He also helps guarantee Wurrzag Foot. You roll him first, and if he rolls foot, drop it. If not, Wurrzag gets it.

4. Night Goblin scroll caddy. Dispel scroll goes here. Done.

5. 30 savage big 'uns with additional choppas. These guys are so god, it's ridiculous. They're your best unit in the book. By miles. They sit back whilst you blast away, looking smug with the 5++ from the head, and run in to mop up.

6. 2 minimum blocks of night goblin archers. Chaff and a bunker for your scroll caddy.

7. More chaff! Goblin wolf chariots and manglers and pump wagons. All the things you need to make sure your big unit of doom goes down last, where you want it, so it'll get all the advantages it needs.

8 War machines! Two doom divers, and two rock lobbas should be the must haves in any Orcs and Goblins list.

9. 8 Trolls. These guys are good. River trolls are better!

The list sits back and redirects, whilst you drop feet on people! Pushing your blocks forward gets you killed. So, your war machines are so good, you max out on them and foot is a hardcore spell.