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Good day all.

I'm here to ruin everyones favorite floating brain!
Please note that the wording for shadow in the warp says:

All enemy units and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership

To me this spells out that all enemy units receive this little beauty of a modifier. Just think of all the beautiful symbiosis with fear causing hive tyrants .

On the other hand all of the tyranids own psykers (Hive tyrant, swarmlord, tervigons, trygon prime) psychic pilot (none) or brotherhood of psykers( Zoanthropes) also get the modifier. meaning your hit or miss warp lance attack just got nerfed from a 9/11 to 6/11 chance to actually try to kill something.

Just a little rant to brighten up everybodies day

What do you guys think about it?

All enemy units and models...

all enemy units and models with the psyker rules get it. Not all units period.

They must have the psyker rules to get it. Emphasizing a word to change the context of the sentence is pretty handily cheating your opponent.

It does not affect your own army's Psykers.

all enemy units and models with psyker..

This means if you have a farseer in a dire avenger squad then only the farseer is affected.

This also means if you have a greyknight squad where they are all psykers, they are all affected.

That is why it says all enemy units and models, it is possible to have an enemy model with psyker that is in a unit that does not have psyker, but the enemy model within the unit would still be affected.

blaktoof wrote:
all enemy units and models with psyker..

This means if you have a farseer in a dire avenger squad then only the farseer is affected.

This also means if you have a greyknight squad where they are all psykers, they are all affected.

That is why it says all enemy units and models, it is possible to have an enemy model with psyker that is in a unit that does not have psyker, but the enemy model within the unit would still be affected.

While I am an advocate of only affecting enemies I believe it is not technically RAW.
I would like to make my point by quoting the above post.
Notice how in the underlined sentence blaktoof used a comma to seperate the object (all enemy units and models) and the resulting explanation (it is possible to ......).
Seeing as there is no comma in the rules text I believe it is a secquencing of alternatives.
Hence RAI:
All enemy units and models, with the Psyker Psychic pilot.........

and RAW:
All enemy units are affected and models with the Psyker, Psych......... are also affected.

Arguing rules under the assumption that the writers and translators were all English literature majors is not a good idea.

badkamer1 wrote:
and RAW:
All enemy units are affected and models with the Psyker, Psych......... are also affected.

That is distinctly not what the rules actually say - that's your interpretation.
All enemy units and models with the special rules are affected.

What's affected? All Enemy. All Enemy what? Units and models.

badkamer1 wrote:
And RAW:
All enemy units are affected and models with the Psyker, Psych......... are also affected.

The above is not correct at all.

For it to read that way the sentence would have had to have been two sentences and constructed like this:

All enemy units suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership. All models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership.


But that is not what it says.

"All enemy units and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership"

This means if an enemy unit has the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules then they suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership

It also means that if an enemy model has the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules then those models also suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership


Your incorrect reading of the sentence makes the " with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules" part of the rule wasted ink, because models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules are a unit themselves or in a unit, so they would not have had to say that.

But they did so the correct meaning of the sentence is as I have shown and not how you have interpreted it.

Here's what I think you should do.

Take a video camera to your FLGS/Tournament/Gaming Room.

Turn camera on.

Play against a Tyranid player.

Attempt to make the argument you've made here to said Tyranid player.

Upload results.

In English grammar there is only one way to read this, The 'enemy' adjective would need to be in a different clause than 'models' subject to not modify it. In the codex it is written 'units and models' as a compound subject that 'enemy' is describing meaning both the models and the units must be enemies to be affected.

Either "All enemy units, and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules.." or "All enemy units and all models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules..." would create the two clauses the OP would require. That is not what is written however.

The only way your belief of how this works with english wording is if they added a comma.

IE:

All enemy units and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership

Became:

All enemy units, and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership


Automatically Appended Next Post:
IE I agree with DJgietzen.

 DJGietzen wrote:
In English grammar there is only one way to read this, The 'enemy' adjective would need to be in a different clause than 'models' subject to not modify it. In the codex it is written 'units and models' as a compound subject that 'enemy' is describing meaning both the models and the units must be enemies to be affected.

Either "All enemy units, and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules.." or "All enemy units and all models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules..." would create the two clauses the OP would require. That is not what is written however.

This; absolutely this. The adjective applies to all subjects within the same clause - simple as that.

GW could have easily avoided this by not even mentioning units at all. Any model from a unit that has Brotherhood of Psykers will also have the rule, after all.

themadlbb wrote:
Here's what I think you should do.

Take a video camera to your FLGS/Tournament/Gaming Room.

Turn camera on.

Play against a Tyranid player.

Attempt to make the argument you've made here to said Tyranid player.

Upload results.

Tyranid player would laugh and say that if you insist that is how it is played they would be happy to oblige.

It would be a huge buff to SitW.

EDIT: and then he would grab his pyrovores so that he could blow up the entire table.

The OP is Dutch and he is trying to apply Dutch grammar to an English sentence...

Although I agree with every bodies objections. (and you have to be kind off an ...... to play it that way)
Here is another nice piece from page 42 of the rule book Strafing-run:

When shooting Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons at Artillery, Beasts, Bikes, Cavalry, Infantry, Monstrous
Creatures and vehicles without the Flyer or Skimmer type, this vehicle has +1 Ballistic Skill.

If we simplify this sentence a bit:

When shooting Assault, .... or Salvo weapons at Artillery...Monstrous Creatures and vehicles without the Flyer or Skimmer type, this vehicle has +1 Ballistic Skill.

Now we all know that the strafing run rule only concerns vehicles without the flyer or skimmer types yet the sentencing is similar to this:

All enemy units and models with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers special rules suffer a -3 penalty to their Leadership whilst...............

Looks the same to me :p

This is ridiculous...

Not the same at all. If any of the unit types listed have the Flyer or Skimmer rule, then Strafing Run won't give +1 BS. It's irrelevant that only Vehicles can actually have those rules, the modifier applies to everyone.
Since you're nitpicking details in a complicated language in order to intentionally interpret a rule in the most counter-intuitive and stupid way possible, I can do the same.

By that logic badkamer1 the straffing run would only apply to Salvo weapons because there is no such thing as an Assault, nor a Heavy, nor a Rapid Fire.

Without "weapons" applying to all of them the sentence is meaningless.

This is basic English mate and the way that it reads is fine and most certainly "All enemy units and models with the etc..." means simply "All enemy units with the psyker..." and "all enemy units with the psyker ..."

An entire sentence must be read in its entirety, picking bits out, out of context, only leads to madness and despair.