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Quite new so not sure if a similar topic has been posted

When shooting through friendly models at enemy units, surely there should be a penalty as it is likely there will be some friendly fire?
I was thinking of perhaps when rolling to hit, it should be against your unit first and anything that misses your unit then goes on to hit the enemy?

For example, say 10 dev gaunts are shooting at a tac squad through a unit of Hormagaunts.... Roll 30 dice and anything that is classed as a hit is resolved against the unit of Hormagaunts (perhaps resolve it at -1 BS to take into account the fact you aren't aiming for them) and then all the ones missed against the Hormagaunts are resolved against the tac squad at full BS

Scouse-cat wrote:
I was thinking of perhaps when rolling to hit, it should be against your unit first and anything that misses your unit then goes on to hit the enemy?

So the better your shooting skill is the more likely it is that you hit friendly models instead of your target? Makes perfect sense.

If you read it all I said a modified BS at first, so say all 1's you roll means a hit on your unit as opposed to the enemy.

Makes sense that when firing through a friendly unit there will be friendly casualties, does it not?

Scouse-cat wrote:
Makes sense that when firing through a friendly unit there will be friendly casualties, does it not?

Given that you would normally be shooting over them (having just told them to take cover, if they weren't in such a position already), rather than through them, no, not really.

If u're shooting above them, than the unit must go to ground.
Basically, the op's idea is nice. Though, it needs some more logic.
There could be a few options:

- When shooting through friendly unit that is not gone to ground, every to-hit roll of 1 counts as a hit towards this unit.
Might have issues with current rules for "gets hot" but overall feels logical and not too crippling.

- When shooting through friendly unit that is not gone to ground, every miss on a further roll of a 5+ is counted as a hit towards this unit.
Will be much more crippling to lower bs units. Like it should be, generally. Will harm my orkses even more, yep but seems logical either.

- When shooting through friendly unit that is not gone to ground, the shooter is counted as having -1 bs for every such unit up to a minimum of bs1.
Doesn't fully represent the "accidentally hit your comrades" but will be the easiest to apply since it won't have issues with blast weapons and "gets hot"

What do you guyz think?

 koooaei wrote:
What do you guyz think?

It's a solution in need of a problem. The difficulty in safely shooting through a friendly unit is represented by the 5+ cover save the target unit gets. We don't need any more rules added to the bloated mess we already have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scouse-cat wrote:
If you read it all I said a modified BS at first, so say all 1's you roll means a hit on your unit as opposed to the enemy.

But even your modified BS suffers from that problem. If you subtract 1 from the unit's BS then a unit of marines will hit their own unit on a 4+ and the target unit on a 1-3, while a unit of IG conscripts will hit their own unit on a 6+ and the target unit on a 1-5. If you mean something different then you need to revise your initial post because your example doesn't say what you seem to think it says.

I think it IS a problem that you can shoot through your own comrades without notable difference in most cases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd like to see more thinking and strategic positioning on the shooty side. It's funny how you always state "we don't need to make things more complicated" while there are such things as random charges, dt effects, disembarking restrictions, unit compositions, mixed saves, characters, challenges and so on. Let's allow cover saves for everyone without checking los, let's not check los at all! And don't roll 2d6 for moving through dt. It's all pretty complicated stuff.

 koooaei wrote:
It's funny how you always state "we don't need to make things more complicated" while there are such things as random charges, dt effects, disembarking restrictions, unit compositions, mixed saves, characters, challenges and so on. Let's allow cover saves for everyone without checking los, let's not check los at all! And don't roll 2d6 for moving through dt. It's all pretty complicated stuff.

But that's kind of the point. Lots of that stuff needs to go, it's just a bloated mess with no real value.

Our opinions differ here cause i think the rules should be detailed and rather complicated. Cause it's a tabletop game with a free movement system. With shooting and close combat. With hugely different forces varying from squishy grots to huge monstrous creatures, tanks and planes. It can't be easy to describe and justify things that happen there. While limited by certain factors, we have to make assumptions that, for example, you can shoot through your own squad, you wound on general toughness and strike vs general ws. It's all fine.
Adding the proposed above rules for shooting through friendly squads will not make a game more difficult. They're just proposed to shift existing rules to be more realistic / fair / fluffy.

I can't remember where I heard this, but how about this rule instead of derping with unit stats:

1: Pick targets as normal
2: Fire at enemy as normal
3: Roll to wound as normal
4: Enemy takes "friendly fire" cover save (5+). Add 1 friendly fire counter to the intervening unit for each successful save.
5: Remove enemy models / casualties
6: Roll to wound against the allied unit for every friend fire counter (Treat these as a normal ranged attacks against the allied unit)
7: Roll any applicable saves
8: Remove allied unit casualties
9: Roll for leadership as normal; but, include the intervening unit when checking to see if Ld tests need to be made

Hm...that's actually a great idea! Reminds of force dome rules where sucksessful saves return wounds to the shooter.
However, i see some problems with this concept. Won't work if shooting vs good armor units or units with built-in cover or in cover themselves. Cause they just won't use this 5+ cover save.

The easy solution to this problem might be to give a target not just static 5+ cover, but Shrowded and +1 to cover for every next intervening unit that's not pinned.