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ok, maybe I'm missing something, or thier going to change some rules, but what would be the value of having Blind on Deep Strike if you cant then charge said unit?

There is none.

It reduces BS as well as WS so I think the design idea was that they deep strike in and are more safe against being shot up as those near them are only hitting shots on 6's. That's the thought, on the table it ends up working... differently. With only a 6" radius and no reduced scatter the risk outweighs the reward. This is especially true when you consider its only one 'hit' with a blind so they just have to pass a I test to ignore the whole thing.

I think warptalons could largely be fixed with some combination of reduced scatter, increased range on blind, and/or increased chance for blind to actually stick (more 'hits' or test at I pentalty or something)

I have never actually used talons but I don't think I would ever deep strike them just to get a chance at a crappy blind test for the enemy.

I would just run them behind a vehicle like a rhino or vindicator with a dirge caster then keep said vehicle near them when they assault so no overwatch.

Just hope the enemy is not in cover or you took a chaos lord to kill a few first.

If you use warp talons, deploy them turn one behind something.

Trust me.

If you use them, I feel you need to go all out

10 Warp Talons- MoN, 2 GoMs, VoTLW
Chaos Lord- MoN, 2 LCs, GoM, VoTLW, Sigil

then take an allied daemon detachment for grimoire to give your dudes a 3++ save. I thought about doing this with MoT but MoT can only give you up to a 3++ save which they get anyway (5 - 2 = 3) so the mark is better used for T5

So at the end of the day you have 11 dual LC guys with T5, 3+/3++ saves, 12" movement, fearlessness, and fear. Not awful, but not great, this is coming at quite a few points, like 520 points or so not including the grimoire holder

How to run Warp Talons:

Bring a Heldrake instead.

They have awesome models but are outperformed by raptors. Who in turn are outperformed by bikers. See what i mean? Warp talons end up as the worst fast attack avaliable for you. Just like possessed in the elite slot.

The correct answer is:
1) Take Orks as an ally
2) Take Cybork Bodies on your Warp Talons
3) Have a 4++ invulnerable on your Warp Talons
4) Realise that you still have a terrible unit because torrent of fire doesn't care about your invulnerable
5.a) Get laughed out of the room for trying to pull off Cybork Bodies on non Orks (it was fine RAW at one point, not sure since the latest round of FAQs)
5.b) Get laughed out of the room for running Orks and trying to do something semi competitive with them

The Blind rule they get is a trap, just deploy them and you should get assaults by turn 2 most games rather than turn 3 at best with far less things that can go wrong. Either way they are terrible overcosted unit in 6th - as mentioned they are completely outclassed by every other Elite slot - Heldrakes are by far the best in the slot and Spawn or maybe Bikers are your go to units if you want a fast/aggressive assault element (if you play in smaller games i.e on a 4 x 4 then Spawn are incredibly overpowered, nothing can deal with 15 Spawn at <1000pts on a 4 x 4).

Cybork bodies just give 5++, they don't improve it. And don't underestimate orks. Battlewagon rushes and nob bikers are still viable. Actually, people manage to win competitive taudar with bw rushes from time to time and that's telling something.

But we've gone offtop. Warp talons can still be used but i'd not deepstrike them. The only situation i see 6' blind might be good is vs something like massed footslogging necrons or tau firewarriors+markers gunline. That's actually one of a few rare situations where warp talons will be decent. Outside of such situations, just treat them as dual lc raptors with invuls and fearless.

 koooaei wrote:
Cybork bodies just give 5++, they don't improve it. And don't underestimate orks. Battlewagon rushes and nob bikers are still viable. Actually, people manage to win competitive taudar with bw rushes from time to time and that's telling something.

But we've gone offtop. Warp talons can still be used but i'd not deepstrike them. The only situation i see 6' blind might be good is vs something like massed footslogging necrons or tau firewarriors+markers gunline. That's actually one of a few rare situations where warp talons will be decent. Outside of such situations, just treat them as dual lc raptors with invuls and fearless.

The worst part is that they aren't fearless to start with. And you have no options to buy the Icon of Vengeance. So if you get hit by anything like the Broodlord's "The Horror" psychic power prepare to be disappointed.

I've only been able to get usable results with them as a small unit with MoS and only when fighting power armor. Striking first they annihilate power armor squads and as such don't take a lot of damage in return. I don't recommend DS either. The blind thing is useless and they're no tougher than marines so to DS is just over extending them.

Even if you increase their chance to blinding, its still just a chance. One day you inevitably DS them and they will fail to blind the enemy and get shot to pieces.

Better would be that they get a cover save the turn they deep strike (to represent the blinding light that surrounds them). It doesn't matter if your 6 inches away or 60 inches away, you will just a see and bright orb with no discernable foes to shoot at.

 Seb wrote:
If you use warp talons, deploy them turn one behind something.

Yeah, it's easy to fall into the trap that GW sets for you and assume that their purpose is to deepstrike somewhere and then kill stuff. Maybe in really low points games this could work, or on those rare occasions that you're up against an opponent with both bad leadership and is likely to spread out (like hordes - deepstriking after those lootas while the rest of the boyz move forward. But still...

It definitely seems the way to use them is in a counterattack role. Something makes it over to your dudes and the warp talons spring out and finish them off.

I guess with Ap3 and shred, they're even decent against certain monstrous creatures as well.

 SRSFACE wrote:
How to run Warp Talons:

Bring a Heldrake instead.

All of this. ^

There is no reason to own Warp Talons, unless you just like the look of the models

Right now they are in the same state as Mutilators, completely useless if not simply situational to the EXTREME.

Even if you wanted to argue that they are MEQ killers... Tell me where they excel in killing MEQ over a Heldrake? lol they're 10 points less, squishy, situational, terribly written rules and rely on melee. There simply isn't any reason to field them aside from some sort of super fluffy / good paint job to look at.

GoliothOnline wrote:Tell me where they excel in killing MEQ over a Heldrake?

They can pull squads off of objectives. They don't care how much or in what way your opponent displaces (especially important for stuff hiding in ruins). They're much more flexible in the movement phase (you can hide them somewhere for point defense, you start them on the table, you're not required to move them 18" every turn, etc). They can put down more hits than there are models in the squad (so you don't leave remnants all the time like the baleflamer does). They cause fear checks. They can deliver lords and sorcerers places. They can make use of cover better before they attack, and they're not vulnerable to interceptor or skyfire weapons.

Helldrakes are better, but they're not LOLWHUT better.

When you get bored of heldrakes and want to try something new?

 koooaei wrote:
They have awesome models but are outperformed by raptors. Who in turn are outperformed by bikers. See what i mean? Warp talons end up as the worst fast attack avaliable for you. Just like possessed in the elite slot.

Sad truth. Really it's the lack of assault grenades that does them in. Silly blind rule and high cost just add to the issue.

They can pull squads off of objectives - Heldrakes burn them off and wound on 2s where a Warp Talon has to both HIT & Wound predominantly on 4s since most of the MEQ units out there have WS4. This means they will effectively fail half their hits and wound just roughly 80% off the top of my head because of Shred.

They don't care how much or in what way your opponent displaces (especially important for stuff hiding in ruins) - Charging into a ruin will probably get you over watched to gak, not to mention it increases your chance of failing, but I see what you mean here, their CC CAN wipe out a squad even if they get into CC with 1 / 20 models in said squad, but it's situational.

They're much more flexible in the movement phase - 90 degree turns with 18"-36" Movement & effective 12" radius on a Template isn't flexible?

They cause fear checks - In CC, if they get into it. Where the Baleflamer simply roasts them and causes Soul Blaze, and will most likely cause a Morale Check.

They can deliver lords and sorcerers places - But why bother? A sorcerer is usually weak as noodles unless he rolls Iron Arm on Bio, and that 3+ save isn't really saving him. Saturating wounds for 160 points for 5 models isn't really helping him any more than a 50 D-Line will if you just keep him back or hid him in a ruin while wearing Terminator Armor. The drake is AV 12 gets hit with normal weaponry on 6s and have a 5++

They can make use of cover better before they attack, - I don't know man. When I run my drakes, I'm usually making GREAT use of my surroundings from my enemies. Ruins still give you a solid save because you are a vehicle, Determining even from forests and high trees / building can get you a good cover save, which technically, ENATELY would perform better on a Heldrake due to being 50% covered by said building offers a 3+ cover save.

they're not vulnerable to interceptor or skyfire weapons. No they're just more vulnerable to everything else on the board that can point at them =/ Sure interceptor can render your 170 point model completely useless since it can get blown up. But the rest of your opponents army can effectively blow your Warp Talons up just as easily. Small Arms Fire will also kill you just as easily en mass and your are more likely to fail a 3+ save from massed small arms fire.

GoliothOnline wrote:They can pull squads off of objectives - Heldrakes burn them off and wound on 2s where a Warp Talon has to both HIT & Wound predominantly on 4s since most of the MEQ units out there have WS4. This means they will effectively fail half their hits and wound just roughly 80% off the top of my head because of Shred.

Both can kill units sitting on objectives, but only warp talons can pull squads off of them, thanks to close combat forcing your opponent to move. It also picks apart your opponent's cohesion as well.

GoliothOnline wrote: They don't care how much or in what way your opponent displaces (especially important for stuff hiding in ruins) - Charging into a ruin will probably get you over watched to gak, not to mention it increases your chance of failing, but I see what you mean here, their CC CAN wipe out a squad even if they get into CC with 1 / 20 models in said squad, but it's situational.

It's possible to reduce a baleflamer down to just 2 hits by spreading out across ruins. Even without, I don't think I've ever allowed an opponent more than 4 hits with a torrent weapon. Meanwhile, assuming they're up against WS4, warp talons throw down 8 hits with their claws. Yeah, S6 will wound more than S4 shred, but the damage that helldrakes put out against savvy opponents can easily be worse than a warp talons. You can change around circumstances to make the baleflamer better (like pack models into a teardrop shape, for example), but the helldrake still doesn't just do straight more damage most of the time.

GoliothOnline wrote: They're much more flexible in the movement phase - 90 degree turns with 18"-36" Movement & effective 12" radius on a Template isn't flexible?

No. It's not that difficult to get units in too close to the helldrake for it to be able to hit, and you can always run behind them. Usually when I play against fliers, they're forced to leave the board at least once or worse, circle around without good targets presenting rear armor.

Meanwhile, a helldrake can't ever enter hover mode, so it can't really hold parts of the board like grounded models can, and they can never score or contest objectives either, both of which make the warp talons more useful in the movement phase as well. Also, you can't hide a helldrake completely out of LOS. Not unless you have some VERY large terrain pieces.

GoliothOnline wrote: They cause fear checks - In CC, if they get into it. Where the Baleflamer simply roasts them and causes Soul Blaze, and will most likely cause a Morale Check.

Hitting a unit with a bale flamer might cause a morale check. Beating a unit by several wounds in close combat will also cause a morale check, and with a serious negative modifier to Ld. Plus, soul blaze isn't as good as sweeping advance.

GoliothOnline wrote: They can deliver lords and sorcerers places - But why bother? A sorcerer is usually weak as noodles unless he rolls Iron Arm on Bio, and that 3+ save isn't really saving him. Saturating wounds for 160 points for 5 models isn't really helping him any more than a 50 D-Line will if you just keep him back or hid him in a ruin while wearing Terminator Armor. The drake is AV 12 gets hit with normal weaponry on 6s and have a 5++

Because sorcerers and lords can absolutely trash the hell out of MEq armies. The difference between quickly and safely delivering an AoBF lord with a damaging retinue and not is enormous.

You might as well say that the fact that a land raider is also a transport is irrelevant, and you can only look at its damage output.

GoliothOnline wrote: they're not vulnerable to interceptor or skyfire weapons. Sure interceptor can render your 170 point model completely useless since it can get blown up. But the rest of your opponents army can effectively blow your Warp Talons up just as easily. Small Arms Fire will also kill you just as easily en mass and your are more likely to fail a 3+ save from massed small arms fire.

Helldrakes are a vehicle, though. When that fortress of redemption blows up your helldrake, or knocks its baleflamer out in a single volley before the helldrake even gets to fire, you'll see what I'm talking about. Even with an invul save and regeneration, they still have to deal with the weaknesses of vehicles.

It doesn't mean that the warp talons don't have to deal with the weaknesses of infantry, but it's easier to solve for these problems (and if you can't solve for them, you're probably already screwed), while if your opponent brings a pair of hydras, well, they're just a straight hard counter.

Again, lol everything you're saying is situational dude.

Heldrakes DO have Hover Mode, I've used it a TON and it's even won me a dozen games or so.

And I don't know what kind of formations you're keeping your units in, but I'm usually hitting 60% of a squad with my Torrent.

Walking behind a Heldrake? What are you talking about, you just aim behind yourself... And why the heck aren't you Vector Striking people off Objectives as well? You CAN do this you know.

And are we just going to ignore that most of the time you're charging through terrain of some sort? Getting wrecked by I1 because you charged through terrain and losing 3-4 models due to your opponents going first is a HELL of a lot more saddening than taking a glance.

The lord argument is highly situational as well. Why bother outfitting your Lord with Warp Talons of Khorne? when they can be IDd by str 8 weapons... That's counter productive in terms of getting your high point cost Lord into CC with his Retinue of 160points per 5 Talons... Throw him on a Juggernaught, give him Chaos Spawn and they are 10 points cheaper, have triple the wounds and can only be IDd by actually ID weapons or str 10. Same with your Lord. Again, This is all situational.

Point for point, and buck for buck, the Drake stomps out the Warp Talons for fast attack slots.

You don't have to agree with me, I don't expect you to, but maybe the other Chaos Players on the forums can convince you otherwise...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, are we really going to bring Purchased Terrain Pieces into the conversation? SITUATIONAL AGAIN. 220 points for a BUILDING just to counter the idea of Drakes in general? Are you saying the Krakstorm Missiles don't obliterate Warp Talons? Come on now!

I think a big problem Warp Talons must face is the fact that to get the best out of them they kind of need to charge a target that is already engaged in combat. I must admit I'm a non user in regards to warp talons though.

if warp talons could assault out of deep strike they'd be great. sadly they can't