Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Very simple question are barrage weapons affect by the 36'' night fight rule?

There's nothing in either the Night Fight or Barrage rules to indicate they aren't.

they are affected through by it through poor wording of the rules in terms of targeting. Whether this is intentional or accidental...you'll get different answers but the end result is that it is affected.

Now, as the damage is coming from the center of the blast, a target my not get the cover bonuses due to distance.

Thanks for the replies and for the help.

you get shroud based on the distance between the units. so the target still gets stealth/shroud no mater where the marker hits.

The wording of the rules directly contradict one another. There are two sides that won't budge on how it should be treated and usually won't even admit that the rules contradict.

Either side being correct is not guaranteed. Their surety, however, is.

It's one of the many reasons that I quit playing until they get stuff like this sorted out.

The best that you can do is come up with something that your group can live with and stick to it until it is fixed by GW.

 EVIL INC wrote:
they are affected through by it through poor wording of the rules in terms of targeting. Whether this is intentional or accidental...you'll get different answers but the end result is that it is affected.

Now, as the damage is coming from the center of the blast, a target my not get the cover bonuses due to distance.

Incorrect, as shrouded / stealth is based on the distance between the two units, and not altered by the barrage rules.

The Night Fighting rules explicitly state that units can't pick a target which is more than 36 inches away. I don't know what is in contradiction here, it's clear as glass to me.

 EVIL INC wrote:
they are affected through by it through poor wording of the rules in terms of targeting.

I'll have to disagree with that.
The rule isn't poorly worded, it's one if the better written rules and very clear if you go through the stages.
"Target" is a clearly defined term in the rules.
Barrage attacks (just like almost every other shooting attack) requires a target.
If the target is 36" away it can't be targeted.
There's nothing poorly written in the target or barrage rules.

I agree with majority of above posters, over 36" cannot be targetted. If we ignore the model for targetting then barrage now have unlimited range at all times.

I think again we're confusing "I don't think it should work like that " with "poorly worded"

I am certainly in the camp that thinks that Barrage weapons should be able to fire beyond the 36", simply because they can fire without LOS but the rules are pretty much open and shut that they can't.

Uptopdownunder wrote:
I am certainly in the camp that thinks that Barrage weapons should be able to fire beyond the 36", simply because they can fire without LOS but the rules are pretty much open and shut that they can't.

If you're talking fluff, I again don't think they should be able to fire.
There's a difference between knowing roughly where an enemy is (indirect shot, no LoS) and having no idea where the enemy unit is (cannot be targeted).

 grendel083 wrote:

Uptopdownunder wrote:
I am certainly in the camp that thinks that Barrage weapons should be able to fire beyond the 36", simply because they can fire without LOS but the rules are pretty much open and shut that they can't.

If you're talking fluff, I again don't think they should be able to fire.
There's a difference between knowing roughly where an enemy is (indirect shot, no LoS) and having no idea where the enemy unit is (cannot be targeted).

True enough but something that can't be seen in the daylight is just as unable to be seen at night time.
In both cases there is a notion of some form of "BVR" target acquisition capability.

But irrelevant of course as they can't shoot beyond 36" anyways.

Can you provide citation that specifically says that the stealth afects the distance between the center of the blast and the unit that i also under the template? That is a new one to me. As far as I know the barrage rules say that the damage counts as coming from the center of the blast and not the unit firing it.

It has to do with the fact that cover saves are determined from the hole instead of the unit. Since the hole will always be well within 12" of the target, the (erroneous) assumption is that the target unit will not get stealth/shrouded from the barrage (as they provide cover saves/bonuses to cover saves).

What they seem to miss is that the Stealth/Shrouded is determined when you pick a target.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Can you provide citation that specifically says that the stealth afects the distance between the center of the blast and the unit that i also under the template? That is a new one to me. As far as I know the barrage rules say that the damage counts as coming from the center of the blast and not the unit firing it.

You determine if the unit gets Stealth/shrouded during phase 2 of the shooting sequence when you check range.

Cover saves are determined from the centre of the blast during step 5.

Also stealth and shrouded are a special rule, they are not cover saves (they simply modify or grant them).

HIWPI
~ maximum 36" range just like every other gun
~ single cover save against the entire shot, either it hits fine or misses completely, nothing else makes sense

The actual rules on the matter can go suck a D weapon

 EVIL INC wrote:
Can you provide citation that specifically says that the stealth afects the distance between the center of the blast and the unit that i also under the template? That is a new one to me. As far as I know the barrage rules say that the damage counts as coming from the center of the blast and not the unit firing it.

Stealth can grant a cover save even if out in the open.

The damage does not come from the marker. the center of the marker is only used to determine if they receive a cover save and for wound allocation.

When we look at determining cover saves we'd check from the center of the hole to see if the unit is 25% obscured or not, then what type of cover they receive. We need to determine cover first to see if stealth is either going to improve the cover the unit has or if it's going to grant a cover save.

Night fighting only cares about the distance between the units, and that distance never changes so a unit between 12" and 24" inches will be granted cover. And we measure the distance between units from closest base to closest base. Blast markers have no bases, nor are they models, nor are they part of the unit ergo they don't change the distance it was shot from. This is also enforced with, if the attack scatters, the original distance between the unit is used, so if you scatter closer than 12 or greater than 24, any unit hit still get's stealth.

So while you allocate wounds from the center of the blast, the distance between the unit never changes once established which grants stealth/shroud accordingly.