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Hey guys,



The spoiler contains my original post which is my intended 2k list. As such, ive started to build my army and I was hoping to get some tips on how to downsize the list to work it at 1500, as it will take me quite a bit of time to convert the army I want. So far what ive gone for:

HQ
Farseer - Rune Witness, Jetbike, Mantle (160)
DE - Duke sliscus (150)

Troops
10 Guardians - Brightlance (110)
5 Dire avengers - Wave serpent, Scatterlaser, holo, Cannon (210)

10 Kabalite warriors -Scannon, raider, flickerfield (170) - forgot this would only be 9, as to leave a space for the duke

Fast Attack
6 Swooping hawks (96)
8 Warp spiders (152)

Heavy Support
Wraithknight (240)
2 War walkers (scatter/scatter, holo) (170)

Total 1458 pts

That leaves me 42 pts, which I could use for upgrades, exarchs etc. However, I feel that im possibly lacking enough troop choices? I only have the three at the moment. So perhaps i could drop a couple warp spiders in order to pick up a ranger squad? As I intend to have a ranger squad in my 2k list, so it would be a unit I intend to make anyway.

Any thoughts or suggestions? I don't particularly want any more serpents (even thought i am aware of how useful they are), I could drop the DE attachment and use the points to bolster some eldar units.


Solar

At 2k your list is a little light on troops, but otherwise solid. With an autarch for 2+ reserve rolls, getting your support in turn 2 should be easy.

Starting from the top, your farseer has no good place to go. Inside the transport his powers are worthless, and he has nobody to hang out with on foot. Some options would be to take a support battery squad, as they are cheap, deadly and T7, a good place to bunker the seer. The other option is to get a jetbike and take the mantle of the laughing god, making him very tough and mobile.

If you still want a psyker but don't want either of the aforementioned options, consider a spiritseer. You can use the same model(since you are doing this to model as much as play) but the spiritseer functions very differently. With runes of battle, you can directly boost aspect warriors like your dire avengers. His spirit mark can make your wraithknight very lethal in both shooting and combat, and telepathy is always strong. All for less than the farseer.

The autarch could go with the spiders, hawks, on foot or a jetbike+mantle similar to the farseer. To keep em cheap, on foot with the avengers is good. Give em a fusion gun, banshee mask and maybe a scorpion chainsword if you have the points. Since you want reserve roles first and formost, you probably don't need to spend too many points here.

The duke needs to be able to join a squad. Either drop a trueborn or kabbie so he can ride with. Either works.

Avengers are strong. Most prefer 10 guardians over 10 avengers, or just 5 avengers in a serpent. Avengers have their merits, just be sure you want them over guardians(avengers are basically more survivable, but damage output is basically the same)

Rangers are OK, but jetbikes are generally better. Both can be hidden in reserves for late game objective scoring/linebreaker(use your autarch for -1 to their rolls). I would take a unit of both for flexibility and a 4th scoring unit.

If your going with 9 warriors, take splinter racks. Combined with the dukes poison boost, you now have a very deadly unit. I would also take night shields if you can afford.

Splinterborn only need 3 bodies, 2 with cannons and the 3rd to make the unit. A shardcarbine is okay if you have spare points, but the other bodies are redundant. Keeping the unit at range keeps it safe. Dual splinter cannons are required for venoms, night shields if you can afford.

Warp spiders are outright amazing. Hawks are too, but you could probably get away with just six. Your list is not hurting on anti infantry, so you really just need the large blast and the lasblasters to mop up. You can skyleap first turn, but they might die if your not careful. Keep in mind your autarch gives them +1 to reserves, so its fairly assured they will touchdown t2.

Hunters are good paired with Autarchs, as they help ensure you will come on after the other flier shows up. The exarch is good but not required.

Wraithknights, ravagers and walkers are all great units. If you want to keep the walkers on the board, dual scatter is the way to go. If you want to outflank, scatter/shuricannon is a bit cheaper but still dead lethal. Starting on the board they need the range of both guns and extra dakka. More war walkers are always a good choice(you could start one on the table, outflank the others).

To answer your question, more walkers are good, but there are tons of other good options. More troops/serpents, Another DE troop? Reaver jetbikes even(keep them in reserve, then bladevane over stuff). You can also deep strike the raider and disembark as you said. Just remember, your troops will be snap shooting as the raiders/venoms count as moving at cruising speed.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
Snip

First off, thank you for such an awesome and informative reply! it was perfect tbh
I had considered quite a lot of that (splinter racks, duke in a squad etc, but I hadn't written my list very carefully tbh :/ ), I will cut each bit and possibly ask a couple more questions, but on the whole great reply and extremely useful

Starting from the top, your farseer has no good place to go. Inside the transport his powers are worthless, and he has nobody to hang out with on foot. Some options would be to take a support battery squad, as they are cheap, deadly and T7, a good place to bunker the seer. The other option is to get a jetbike and take the mantle of the laughing god, making him very tough and mobile.

That is a very good point I hadnt considered, where would he go?! My options I think that are best - at 2k I could take double FOC (yes? even if im not over? literally on 2k?) So i could take a support battery for what 50 pts? thats T7 then. However, I think your right, a spiritseer is a much better option. I could then go the suppliment? make the wraithknight my warlord? As id then benefit from renewer and a very tough wraithkinght giving AT fire. But i also like the idea of him going with the avengers as a spiritseer. (but now due to your post the avengers are up in the air anyway).

The autarch could go with the spiders, hawks, on foot or a jetbike+mantle similar to the farseer. To keep em cheap, on foot with the avengers is good. Give em a fusion gun, banshee mask and maybe a scorpion chainsword if you have the points. Since you want reserve roles first and formost, you probably don't need to spend too many points here

ok, well il have a think I am super looking forward to modelling this dude (as im modelling my force as an exodite harle force with mixture of DE/E parts, fluff being that they are a giant troupe playing out the fate of the eldar race in a master show - DE are so damn dynamic!).

Avengers are strong. Most prefer 10 guardians over 10 avengers, or just 5 avengers in a serpent. Avengers have their merits, just be sure you want them over guardians(avengers are basically more survivable, but damage output is basically the same)

I was slightly aware of this, but avengers are so damn cool! i guess i can model em like avengers and call em guardians But if I take a cheap autarch I can then run them as avengers. infact if i model like avengers i can run as both and see what i like. (its just the head pieces tbh, look so funky)

Rangers are OK, but jetbikes are generally better. Both can be hidden in reserves for late game objective scoring/linebreaker(use your autarch for -1 to their rolls). I would take a unit of both for flexibility and a 4th scoring unit.

my only concern has been that id not meet the 50% criteria of units starting on the board? If i went with bikes id want to model them as units with wings (a dilemma ive been stuck with awhile - sizing is a massive issue)

If your going with 9 warriors, take splinter racks. Combined with the dukes poison boost, you now have a very deadly unit. I would also take night shields if you can afford.

Splinterborn only need 3 bodies, 2 with cannons and the 3rd to make the unit. A shardcarbine is okay if you have spare points, but the other bodies are redundant. Keeping the unit at range keeps it safe. Dual splinter cannons are required for venoms, night shields if you can afford.

Yep, il do that with the raiders, and good point about the trueborn. Duke could ride with them, but I think mathematically its not that much of extra shots getting the benefit, plus then its a little bit of a fire magnet i guess.

Warp spiders are outright amazing. Hawks are too, but you could probably get away with just six. Your list is not hurting on anti infantry, so you really just need the large blast and the lasblasters to mop up. You can skyleap first turn, but they might die if your not careful. Keep in mind your autarch gives them +1 to reserves, so its fairly assured they will touchdown t2.

Hunters are good paired with Autarchs, as they help ensure you will come on after the other flier shows up. The exarch is good but not required.

True again about the hawks, I love spiders in terms of fluff and awesomeness! but they will need a new model - so static!

As for the rest il consider flanking and see how it goes, i just fear if i flank them i wont have enough AT at the game start to deal with transports, meaing when I DS I have little to shoot up. I will definitely consider more troops. I was planning on then maxing out as many troops as I could, so another venom or raider. But as you suggested, reserved bikes could be a very good choice for getting to those objectives.

Your welcome. At exactly 2k you can double FOC. Using the iyanden supplement gives you some totally badass warlord traits, and the ability to have a warlord knight. Better used with wraith heavy armies, but it is still really good. Also fits fluff well, as the dark elder love to fight with the Iyanden. You could mix it up with your corsairs being Iyanden based, or harlequin based etc.

Autarchs have the most options in the codex, so you could probably model him as you want. Most people won't care if you call wings a generator one game, so long as you don't have a bike in a jetpack unit. You can use the support battery bases for a bike your model can stand on, then be taken off if you want to play that route.

Avengers are just guardians with fancy hats and armor. They look about the same, and have functionally the same stuff, again most people probably wont care so long as your not running both in the same list, and using the same models to represent both.

So long as you use the flying base, your bike size is not that big of a deal. You could use some fantasy wings or something and make custom surfboard/bikes.

I agree about keeping the walkers on the table for your mid ranged AT. You don't want to waste your heavy d cannons on a rhino or something.

Hey Dr. Serling,

while making my 2k force ive wanted to put together a smaller force so I can get down to playing sooner, what do you think of the list ive put up? should be in my original post as an edit.

Why not consider dropping the Farseer and grabbing a mantleTarch?

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
Why not consider dropping the Farseer and grabbing a mantleTarch?

I did think about that, originally I was going to use the farseer for guide on the warwalkers and warp spiders, but I was considering an autarch on a jetbike, with shining spear and mantle. could possibly be a good choice, I can use his chanrging in order to wipe out squads that the spiders dont finish up. In fact that might be a really good idea I dont have any intended close combat units, so I could use the fact he has a rerollable 2+ cover save in order to throw him into the thick of it. I wouldn't expect him to survive the game though and most likely would give up slay the warlord, but suppose thats not a huge issue (plus I have a really really awesome conversion in mind for the autarch so nothing would please me more )

I would definitally drop holos from war walkers, to expensive and they have a 5+invul already

As far as the laughing seer vs laughing autarch, it just depends on which one you list wants/needs more. Both have merit: The farseer is one tough cookie to kill, providing mobile psychic support and even serving as a CC unit to tarpit when needed(zoanthropes are a prime example of things you can charge). Using hit and run from the mantle to dart away. The autarch provides a much beefier combat statline and depending on wargear costs more or less the same. You get reserve manipulation and a CC nightmare, but no psychic support.

Both are good, but for different reasons. Unless your paranoid parrot about your hawks never showing up, or feel the need to keep them back, I would take the seer. There are several powers in each discipline that can seriously buff your list. One thing, if you do take the seer take a singing spear. There is nothing lulzier than boosting your seer behind a tank and popping it with a point blank shot. Or instagibbing a T4 model(See Zoanthropes).

I second ninja to drop the holo fields from the walkers. If you want to spring for some fun/utility, trade them for star engines so you can battle focus like a boss.

Although not required, I almost always take an exarch with a sunrifle for the birds. Bs5 helps mitigate scatter from the blast, and Ap3+blind is very nice.

Dropping some spiders for rangers and/or jetbikes is a decent idea. I have won many a game when 1-2 troop models were left on objectives and I was otherwise tabled.

One more thing would be to put night shields on your raider. It allows you to be in rapid fire range while mitigating rapid fire back.Even bolters can drop a raider with ease.

Thanks ninja and sterling, excellent points.

Originally id taken holo fields because I was also considering ghost walk (for cover abusing lols with battlefocus), but obviously with a 5+ invun, i am not making much use of the 30 pts.

il model both i think - love modelling IC's anyway so then i can play either and enjoy both styles.

I orginally had an exarch in both spiders and hawks, but realised by dropping them I could take another 1-2 of each almost. certainly with the warp spiders. But the benefits of the sun rifle and bs5 is a very good point and I think worth the re-invest in an exarch.

yeh at 60 pts I really think the rangers shine at adding another troops unit that while not putting out much damage, simply add another target that needs to be delt with. I will most certainly G2G with them too, as shooting wise they only output 1-2 wounds a turn and 60 pts for a objective holder is a steal imo

pumped to get home and get some models done! thanks guys!

Yeah, the spider exarch does not bring as much as hawk exarch. There are some fun tricks you can pull with fast shot and a spinnerrete rifle, but standard exarch+fast shot and your better with another spider.

In addition to the stat boost, having a power armored dude can seriously save your bacon. Granted, my exarch usually dies the minute I test his 3+, but when you live on because of it, good things generally happen.

Rangers can be used to outflank, then battle focus to an objective. Then just g2g and snap shoot. They are great against FMC's; if you have gone to ground, might as well snap shoot where you would anyways. Any hit forces a ground test, and sniper weapons are best against MC's to begin with. Rangers have a TON of hard counters due to all the ignore cover out there, but if used right they are better than conventional wisdom says.

Here's what I would do with your list. I think both of your lists are a little light on troops.
HQ
Farseer - Jetbike, Mantle, Singing spear (160)
DE - Duke sliscus (150)

Troops

5 Dire avengers - Wave serpent, Scatterlaser, holofield (195)
6 Dire Avengers - Wave Serpent, Scatterlaser & holofield (207)

9 Kabalite warriors -Scannon, raider, flickerfield (161)
Fast Attack
6 Warp spiders (114)
7 Warp spiders (133)

Heavy Support
Wraithknight (240)
2 War walkers (scatter/scatter) (140)

Total: 1500

Warp spiders are better than swooping hawks in just about every way: better weapon, move faster, better armour save, and they can still deep strike if they wish. Only thing your missing out on is the str4 ap4 ignores cover large blast which has disappointed me too many times. I dropped the guardians in favor of another wave serpent with avengers, I think its a much stronger troop choice with more damage output.
Best of luck!

Thanks Helvost, that was something id also felt. I havent played many games yet with my first army, but as its orks I generally tend to have enough troops definitely feels odd not having more than 20 models as my whole troops choice

I can see your point about spiders over hawks, but i love hawks in concept and probably wont be able to drop them im looking forward to testing out the dire avengers, there another unit that i love from a more fluffy perspective.

quick question, I guess if i have 6 hawks and one dies and i skyleap, on the return I now have to use the small blast? as im now under 6 models.

Yeah sadly, it's what you have not what was purchased