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Ok, so i have recently built my own Deffkopta completely from scratch.
I'm also in the process of doing the same on a few Zapp Guns.

but here's my question. Can i legally field these? There's a couple guys in my play group complaining about them not being GW models.
I just figured as long as you can clearly tell what they are they would be fine.
I'll post some pics when they're done.

Thoughts?

'Legally' depends entirely on where you are playing.


However, most stores and clubs are ok with scratch-builds so long as it is clear what they are supposed to be.

For a private gaming group, it's always going to be down to what the rest of the group is happy to accept.

If you're not playing in a GW store, or a GW run event, and the objection is that they are not GW models, I would be asking them why that makes any difference.

As long as they're roughly the same dimensions and on the same base most people wouldn't have any issue with it.

It used to be encouraged. Honestly if it matches the profile of the real model for TLOS then it's usable. Purism stifles creativity within the hobby.

But as for tournament play, you'd have to check with the TO first. Other than that it should be completely fine to use where ever unless the opponent doesn't like it for some reason.

Hit them with the nearest, largest hardback book on hand. Preferably a BRB. The many forms that creativity can take are a huge part of what makes this hobby great. From the humble miniature painting, through conversions, and all the way to scratch-builds, especially if it looks good. If you put time and effort into it, you deserve to field it. Besides, it's a bloody Deffkopta. It's not like you've scratch-built some absolutely broken unit from Forge World purely because you wanted to get something overpowered without paying for it.

I've never heard any objection to scratch builds.

Hell WD has even included conversions of toys - a few years back (but still 'modern day' it was 4th or 5th edition I think) they had a feature on a 'scratch built' ork army whose vehicles were mostly converted toy trucks, the X% rule seems to only apply to direct competitors (IE: dedicated wargame figures).

 Gashrog wrote:
..., the X% rule seems to only apply to direct competitors (IE: dedicated wargame figures).

And even then should only be an issue if you are playing in a GW store, or a GW-sponsored event.

 insaniak wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:
..., the X% rule seems to only apply to direct competitors (IE: dedicated wargame figures).

And even then should only be an issue if you are playing in a GW store, or a GW-sponsored event.

This. I'll never take anyone seriously when they're objecting to stuff on such grounds without being a tournament or GW-official, unless the "scratch-build" is a crude cardboard cutout with "is a Deffkopta" scrawled on the side. That doesn't seem to be the problem, though, if they specifically said "it's not a GW model".

I let a friend run a Devastator squad that was comprised entirely of miniature bases, with the Sergeant being a miniature base with a pair of Space Marine legs glued on. This should not be seen as some sort of special courtesy on my part.

EDIT: It was also a very small (700pt, if I remember correctly) game, so there was no chance of getting confused.

 n0t_u wrote:
It used to be encouraged. Honestly if it matches the profile of the real model for TLOS then it's usable. Purism stifles creativity within the hobby.

But everything changed when the modeling For Advantage nation attacked.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
. It's not like you've scratch-built some absolutely broken unit from Forge World purely because you wanted to get something overpowered without paying for it.

Oh you just HAD to put this line

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I let a friend run a Devastator squad that was comprised entirely of miniature bases, with the Sergeant being a miniature base with a pair of Space Marine legs glued on. This should not be seen as some sort of special courtesy on my part.

See, that one, I would have a problem with.

40K is a miniatures game. I can accept unpainted miniatures (I prefer them painted, but I fully accept that some people just don't want to paint, or just haven't got to it yet). At a pinch, I can accept not-quite-fully-assembled miniatures. But there should actually be miniatures. They're kind of important.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
But everything changed when the modeling For Advantage nation attacked.

Except it didn't.

Modelling for advantage has been a potential issue in every edition of the game so far. People were complaining about how abusive it would be to model a Wraithlord (or at that time, Eldar Dreadnought) in a kneeling pose back when I started in 2nd edition, and that argument has continued in every edition since, despite the relative scarcity of people actually doing it.

Creativity has similarly always been a big part of the game. From my experience, people are generally quite accepting of conversions and scratchbuilds, so long as they don't deviate too extremely from the model they are supposed to be.

Yes, there will be some people who will see any perceived advantage and claim MFA... but that's not a new thing. Those people have always been there.

BoomWolf wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It used to be encouraged. Honestly if it matches the profile of the real model for TLOS then it's usable. Purism stifles creativity within the hobby.

But everything changed when the modeling For Advantage nation attacked.

There's not an awful lot of MFA you can do with a Deffkopta. How often does MFA really come up, anyway? Specifically, how often does a cover save for a Deffkopta come up? What possible MFA could a single Deffkopta ever feature that would have any meaningful impact on a game?

Bobthehero wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
. It's not like you've scratch-built some absolutely broken unit from Forge World purely because you wanted to get something overpowered without paying for it.

Oh you just HAD to put this line

Well, yeah, I did have to. I can see having a problem with the scratch-build in this case. If the scratch-build is of high quality (ie, not a juice carton with cardboard tube legs - it's a Warhound), it's not an issue because there is obvious effort and care involved beyond "I want to cheat at 40k". If someone can build something that looks good, more power to them, but that's not the point I'm making - it's a Deffkopta. Seriously. One Deffkopta (with future Zapp Guns). With Orks, especially! The race that most favours scratch-building and conversion above all! If these guys who have a problem with the scratch-build were having problems with it because the OP had made a crude Revenant Titan out of coat hanger wires and toothbrushes, I'd understand.

insaniak wrote:See, that one, I would have a problem with.

40K is a miniatures game. I can accept unpainted miniatures (I prefer them painted, but I fully accept that some people just don't want to paint, or just haven't got to it yet). At a pinch, I can accept not-quite-fully-assembled miniatures. But there should actually be miniatures. They're kind of important.

I should clarify that the main point of the game was for him to playtest Devastators (he was pretty new at the time), and it was at the absolute maximum extent of "friendly game". I was at his house and had only brought my very small list (wasn't even there to play 40k!) of Tyranids, as I wasn't a Chaos player at the time, and I just so happened to have a bunch of extra bases in my bag. My point is that slapping him in the face and saying "No! GW models only/100% WYSIWYG!" is just silly, because the setting was so informal. Obviously this situation is different, but friendly courtesy is free. I'd understand not allowing Basevesators, but not allowing this Deffkopta is just plain obtuse.

When I first got back into the game after a few years with my orks, on my time off I had made 3 kannons out of plasticard and tubing. i put them on a larger scenic base (not really thinking about the game.) That's what i got a bit of flack for, even though the actual bug guns models don't even come with bases... so i ripped them off and stuck them to terminator bases and nobodys had a problem since. What im getting at is just make sure they are on a proper sized base or none at all.

The other thing is my battlewagon, its about 3 inches longer than the GW model but exactly the same width (so its not like i was trying to take advantage of the front armour 14) but this one guy said i was MFA to get a bigger side arc, so i just pointed out a passage in the ork codex that states "Battlewagons come in all shapes and sizes" he still wasn't happy because "that's a unid description/fluff so i gave him the win and started packing up. everyone else i have come across with is just complements me on my work, 2 types of people i guess.

Thanks fro all the input folks!
I didnt see any real big advantage to either of these scratch models.
I mean i'm sure the Zzap guns are a bit longer than GW models. Thats because i'm new and have'nt purchased any.

I have a buddy who plays with completely scratch Killakans and Deffdreads. I think they're spectacular.

Like RobZie said, 2 kinds of people i guess

 Frozen Ocean wrote:


Well, yeah, I did have to. I can see having a problem with the scratch-build in this case. If the scratch-build is of high quality (ie, not a juice carton with cardboard tube legs - it's a Warhound), it's not an issue because there is obvious effort and care involved beyond "I want to cheat at 40k". If someone can build something that looks good, more power to them, but that's not the point I'm making - it's a Deffkopta. Seriously. One Deffkopta (with future Zapp Guns). With Orks, especially! The race that most favours scratch-building and conversion above all! If these guys who have a problem with the scratch-build were having problems with it because the OP had made a crude Revenant Titan out of coat hanger wires and toothbrushes, I'd understand.

I think it's the fact you specified Forge World that irritated him. It's not like there aren't a hundred broken things you could scratchbuild for that are Citadel miniatures, too.

Also, arugably, the IG can easily match the orks as far as scratchbuild go, you can just wing it as a new pattern from X planet and there's far more 3rd party IG minis.

Wait so I can't field my land speeder.... :(



Seriously, I haven't bought anything in years. I only scratch build and will scratch build when the new IG codex comes out as well. If you can make it look decent and match the size there should be no problem. Sure in a GW store you'll get hassled but for a tourney just ask ahead of time.

My Nemesis Dreadknight, played in quite a few games and even a tourney and no one had any problems.


Like so many people said it used to be very much encouraged, the core rule books even showed you examples.

 portugus wrote:
Wait so I can't field my land speeder.... :(



Seriously, I haven't bought anything in years. I only scratch build and will scratch build when the new IG codex comes out as well. If you can make it look decent and match the size there should be no problem. Sure in a GW store you'll get hassled but for a tourney just ask ahead of time.

My Nemesis Dreadknight, played in quite a few games and even a tourney and no one had any problems.


Like so many people said it used to be very much encouraged, the core rule books even showed you examples.

Hahaha, brilliant! THIS is why I am into the hobby.

Hell yeah! those are awesome!

Half the point of playing 40K is the opportunity to scratchbuild or modify a load of different vehicles and models, which you can't do in historicals.

It's the best bit of The HHHobby IMO. It would be a real shame if that aspect was driven out.

A printout of a land speeder on a piece of wood is not an awesome scratchbuild. ¬_¬

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A printout of a land speeder on a piece of wood is not an awesome scratchbuild. ¬_¬

How about on corrugated card?

The kinds of people who scratchbuild things tend not to be the kinds of people who are WAAC TFG players. The kinds of people who dedicate an entire weekend (or month of weekends!) to building something, whether it's for a game or not, typically are pretty cool folks.

Everyone I know who fields an army to win has a terribly painted army, or all their really awesomely painted stuff was bought at discount from eBay. Not to say I don't know guys with superbly painted armies that aren't also quite powerful. I know a fellow who used to work for Blue Table Painting up in Salt Lake and his Tau Empire army, especially his riptide, are gorgeous. Thing is, he's not netlisting top tier armies but is simply using models he thinks looks cool and will also tone his army back if you can't match his army's power level.

 portugus wrote:
My Nemesis Dreadknight, played in quite a few games and even a tourney and no one had any problems.

Looks cooler than the official model, IMO

Thanks! I wanted to ally with my IG so wanted to kinda make it look blocky like the IG tanks.

The land speeder was sarcasm. :p only made it to pass the time while deployed.

I agree with SRSFace about the paint quality or lack of on competitive players. At least in my experience.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A printout of a land speeder on a piece of wood is not an awesome scratchbuild. ¬_¬

Lol that much is clear.

I was being sarcastic .... unless you consider things that corny and homemade to be awesome in their own right ... which i do

So much win

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A printout of a land speeder on a piece of wood is not an awesome scratchbuild. ¬_¬

It's pretty cool, though.

Technically speaking, 40k requires you to use citadel miniatures. That means anything else, from scratchbuilds to 3rd party to forgeworld isn't following the rules.

Of course, that rule is also silly, and is generally ignored. I've never had anyone personally tell me I couldn't use my scratchbuilt minis because they weren't citadel miniatures, and if they did I'd probably just give them a nice, long, blank stare, and then go and play with someone else.

There needs to be some "rule of cool" in these things.
If it took some obvious effort, people should be hard pressed to disallow it: it is like saying: "Your hard work is not good enough".

Was WYSIWYG applied? You are most of the way there.

Played a guy where half his army was color printed pictures of the model (front and back) glued to a hardboard outline and stuck to a properly sized hardboard base. Looked like garbage and made me want to field my cardboard titan...

It just needs to be a 3d model of some kind since we are after all playing with toys not chits on a map, it is all about the spectacle of the thing.

But I have issues with the half assembled, half torn apart, poorly primed models fielded in general.

OP: You scratch built (please with putty or styrene, not paper). That is better than most people out there.

these are 2 of the items i'm in the process of building

WWIP Big Gunz (Zzap)