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So amongst all the talk about "fixing" comp 40k. For those of us that would love to see the magical balance of the codices. Percentage based FOC is one of the ways that has been suggested to cut down on the Death Star builds and crest a bit more diversity in the tournament scene. Trying to move beyond the theoretical, I thought I would post here the proposed limitations and see what kind of lists everyone comes up with.

1. No FOC slot aside from troops may be above 25% of your army.
2. Allied units count towards the percentage of the slot they fill. E.G. Allied tau, o'vessa counts towards your HQ limitation.
3. Dedicated transports are also limited to 30% of your total points.
4. Troops must be at least 25%
So imagining a 1750 point tourney list. You are limited to 438 points in each FOC as well as only 525 points spent on dedicated transports. Lets see what Dakka can come up with. I will post my own ideas for lists as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'll start with eldar, as that is the army that I've been taking to tshft lately. I'll go through my thoughts a bit as well.

Hq. 310/438
Illic. 140
Farseer, bike, mantle, stones. 170
I've kept well below the points limitations with a. Couple of strong hq options. Illic is a cheap super killer of big targets. He has the potential to take out a 200 plus point monstrous creature or hq unit with his instant death gun. The farseer can soak up fire power and his buffing abilities will magnify my other units, especially with the limited weighting.

Troops. 321
Pathfinders. (5) 125
Jet bikes (5). 85
Jet bikes (3). 51
Rangers (5). 60
I like pathfinders ability to pick out their target from a unit. It's a great way to take out that important model without having to kill the blob he's hiding in. I want my jet bikes a touch bigger so they can take that first loss without a leadership test. Rangers can do fun things like deep strike next to Illic.

Elite. 305
Wraith guard (5). 160
Dedicated serpent scatter lasers, cannon. 145
Holo fields.
Anti tank and anti air right here.

Fast attack. 372
Hornet pulse lasers, holo-fields. 90
Night wing. 145
Swooping hawks (6) exarch. 137
Fast attack is a lot of my anti tank ability more so then the heavy slot.

Heavy. 440
Wraithknight scatter laser, sun cannon. 300
Shadow weavers (3) 90
D-cannon (1). 50
The wraithknight really weights the heavy slot, but Iove his durability, and potential damage output. He can sometimes single handedly take out an elite army. The shadow weavers are there for blasts, and the d-cannon is a really powerful gun with the potential for Illic tricks. The 140 points I have left over could also go to a fire prism or a. Our of war walkers, but I just like the artillery.

I would consider putting an aegis with a las cannon in this list as well, for the farseer to have a touch more offensive power, or for sniping models with pathfinders. Also would improve the anti air power of the army.

I'm pretty sure this is in the wrong forum... But I will answer anyway.
I like this idea, and there have been plenty of previous threads on the topic of switching 40k list building to something more like WHF.
However, I don't under why you are limiting dedicated transports. That really doesn't make sense to me why you would specificly limit that, rather than just add the points total to whatever section the squad who's using it came from.
Also curious as to why you avoided the other commonly connected rule that you have to spend at least 25% on troops, like in WHF.

Personally, I would like to see this change in the next edition of 40k. But I don't think it will ever happen, as it will limit the number of big things a play will have and prevent the spamming of good new units, which GW would never promote. A good idea though.

The reason for limiting transports is to prevent spamming of powerful ones like the wave serpent or the night scythe. I've been thinking about it, a bit though and a friend brought up that there would not be enought points for a dark angels terminator army to bring more the. One dedicated land raider. So perhaps the dedicated transport limit would be thirty percent, which gives you 525 points to play with.

I've been trying to think of ways to take advantage of the percentage system in an army list as well. It will happen invitably that an unforeseen combination could arise. Continuing with eldar. Fhe new Death Star might be four three farseers and an autarch in a shinig spear squad.

I'll ruminate on what that might look like.

I think the intent would be to have powerful close combat with enough goodies to make them fearless and such. So:

Farseer, jetbike stones. 115
Farseer, jetbike. 100
Autarch, jetbike, shard. 125
Autarch, jetbike, lance, 95
That would be 435/438 points.
They would go with a beefed out shining spear squad
So 260 points into 9 spears, exarch, star lance, hit and run.

There is a 695 point base to build off of. With up to four wave serpents supporting it. That would be pretty ugly I think.

Necrons - 2k list (tourney)

Nemessor Zandrekh
Destruktek (solar pulse)
Destruktek
Destruktek
Destruktek
Chronotek (w chronometron)

5 x Warriors (night scythe)
5 x Warriors (night scythe)
5 x Warriors (night scythe)
5 x Warriors (night scythe)

6 x wraiths
6 x wraiths

Doom Scythe
Doom Scythe
Annihilation Barge

Bastion
Comms Relay

So at 2000 point games i wouldn't be able to field more than 2 blank land raider crusaders?

meh.

Also codex inquisition broke as they are not troops.

Just to explain - Zandy and the court are in the bastion.

Phased reinforcements and the wraiths gives you many deployment options beyond that, but I like the A Barge on top of the bastion. Obviously this would ideally be near an objective.

The enemy needs to focus anti air on the d scythes. Or they die. (I could take five a barges instead - assuming double FoC at 2k).

@desubot.

Well we did change dedicated transports to thirty percent. So at 2000 points you would have 600 in dedicated transports and 500 available in heavy. I may not be sure familiar with the new codex, but that should be enough for four land raiders yes?
As to codex inquisition, I'm confused, what do you mean?

@kholzerino

I like it. I have always found necron Air Force challenging with the way Inbuild my armies, but they can be a lot of fun when things go right. I like the use of the bastion with the annihilation barge, but does it have enough room for the comms relay and the tank?

Codex inquisition is a special snowflake. it has no troops. only HQ (2) and Elite (3) as well as DTs. meaning you would be limited to 25% of your total points always (well 50% with the hq)

Perhaps I have misinterpreted codex inquisition, but I didn't believe it was meant to be a standalone codex, but was instead a formation style Ally available to a select number of codices.
If that is true, then your addition of hq and elite units would count against your primary forces division of points.

I think that it's a good idea mate, there is always going to be losers in any alternative force org method....

To be honest, I've never tried it with the Comms Relay placed on top... The A barge fits on top easily.

Should one always use the one that comes with the Aegis Defence Line?

Seems cool, for me as imperial guard player, at 2000, i could only have 500points as Heavy support ?

I'm not sure your limitation would work... but the idea was/is good.

@kholzerino

I believe the one that comes with the aegis is the appropriate one to use, I believe it is comparable to the las cannon or quad guns.

I would be worried that to have it up there you would be losing any possible cover you could attain, so your only gaining height and line of sight. Then being terrain you would be either not moving, thus giving up your jink, or you would be risking a one in six immobilized result. If anything I would think a doomsday barge would be best up there without a comms relay.
With Zandrekhs phased reinforcements ability I think you could let go of the comms since you can deepstrike a lot of your units when you enemy comes in.

However I'm not a necron player, so you likely know better than I.

The additional restriction on dedicated transports seems superfluous to me. As without a points realignment with it you do not really limit the amount of the transports considered overpowered without hoseing books with expensive transports. Makes me think it might be better to just add the transport cost to the units allowed percentage as was mentioned above.


As for a list, assuming that the percentage knocks out the numerical limit on each slot.

HQ 190/438
Destroyer Lord
sempiternal weave
MSS
Res orb

Troops 325
Warriors with Nightscythe x5

Dedicated Transports 500/525

FA 350/438
Wraits x5 175
Wraiths x5 175

HS 360/438
Anni barge x4


This comes out to 1725. I think troops should have to be a certain percentage of your army. And I feel like it should be more than 25%. Otherwise the list I posted above would, while a little heavy on croissants(which was done just to max my 30% dedicated transport allotment) would most likely not be fun for most people to play against with the same % based limitations placed on them. And the possibility of 5 Barges in a 1850 game also seems a little over the top.



Also this should probably get moved to the proposed rules section.

@sadfacegoboom
I agree with the requiring 25% minimum in the troops slot, and will change the original post to match.

The reason for placing transports in their own slot was because if they were not, then the required over 25% troops allowance including their transports, will allow you to quickly reach that target, and spam the aforementioned over powered transports. You would then be able to build an army entirely out of night scythes correct?

Any set up will have models that can take advantage of the system. Necrons already powerful as they are would be able to spam annihilation barges to a pretty crazy degree. It comes to the same issue of where to you make cut off of percentage. At what point in trying to make land raiders for instance viable, do you over power other armies because there are as many points as previously.

I believe as a short term fix to create more balance to the current system, percentages goes a long way. I do not believe it is the perfect solution to the issues that seem to plague the game now.

Thanks for the list though, as I said before I've had more fun playing against necron air force lists then I have 2+++ lists.

Just fyi, there is also an additional rule for WHF list building to prevent spamming. You are only allowed 2 of the same rare choices for every 2000 points. Something similar could be added to 40k, such as only 3 of the same unit (except for troops of course). It doesn't solve things like Necron flier spam, because they are transports for troops. But it would help with a lot of problems that you face in double FoC armies.

I agree that would help a lot, although I think that is more for my 8th edition project then for making lists for a percentage FOC with the current rules.

As to the 8th project, percentage FOC with limit on replicated units will be in it for sure. I plan a breakdown very similar to the one used in fantasy with various points values allowing various numbers of units.

Id just like to say this is a great idea and I can't wait to see a load of lists considered on this thread. I will contribute in a day or two.
There is no issue with land raiders unless you are inquisition or BA as they are in both dedicated transports AND heavy so you could spend upto 50% of your points on them.
AT LEAST 25% of your points being on troops (not including transports) is also a good idea.

I thought I might as well contribute a list. I play nids, so meeting my troop 25% minimum isn't hard. This is my normal tourney list anyway.
HQ: 460 pts
2 Flyrant with TL-devs

Elites: 285 pts
3 Venomthropes (3 broods of 1)
3 Zoanthropes (3 broods of 1)

Troops: 560 pts
3 broods of 30 terms
2 broods of 20 horms

Heavies: 690 pts
2 Tyrannofexes with rupture cannons
2 Carnifexes with bio plasma

All I would do is drop the 2 carnifexes and either add a brood of 20 gargoyals and a harpy or add a tervigon as a troop.

 Grepsd wrote:
Seems cool, for me as imperial guard player, at 2000, i could only have 500points as Heavy support ?

I'm not sure your limitation would work... but the idea was/is good.

Unless you allied in armoured company, or used a Kreig assault brigade. Alternatively you could use more flyers instead of armour and artillery and sill be competitive.

@ Seapheonix - While true that removing a percentage for transports would make it easier to fill out the troops %, if the required number of troops percentage was closer to 50%(This may be a bit high, however it would force hard choices as to what else you will bring, since the rest of the FOC slots would be robbing each other for space) I do not think it would be as bad .

To me it comes down to more bog standard troopers should be fighting it out. With a possible cavaet that you cannot spend more in dedicated transports than you have spent on troops. Actually after typing that it seems quite elegant. Might not sound like much but when your trying to maximize every alloted point percentage of your favorite non troops FOC slot it might get really annoying paying extra for dudes just to get thier fancy transport. the list I posted above loses alot of its punch if I do not have the points left for a bunch of anni barges and wraith stars.




(Imagine a wargame where armies fight battles against each other and basic troops make up half of each side. Almost like they are the most common type of unit for a faction to field!)

Interesting. I think I like that. I'm not sure about the percentage of the cost being fifty percent, that would really effect armies like sisters of battle who really only have one troop to choose from. Although perhaps. If I have some time this weekend, I'm hoping to do a little bit of playtesting with armies built out of this. I have nids and Eldar, I'd love to have someone elses suggestions as to what they would use.

I have a limited number of chaos as well and would be happy proxying to make up any list.

I have been thinking about and wanting to try this for some time, wish I was west coast =/.

Anyway, while it may be bland for SoB players I dont know how much it would actually hurt them, once you factor in that while they only have 1 troop choice, the amount of regular joe troops for them to burn off the table would be higher. Admittedly though this need playtesting to get a feel for the best % of army required for troops.

I can post a Chaos Space marine and demons list as well once I get off work and have access to my books.

Alright, the eldar army that I'm going to try out first, following the rules we've come up with so far.
1745/1750 points.

hq 435/438
spirit seer
Autarch, bike, shard, fusion gun
Farseer, bike
Farseer, bike

Troops 530<525
Wraithguard (5)
Wraithguard (5)
Wraithguard (5), d-scythes

Fast 190/438
Shining spears (6) exarch, star spear, hit and run, monter hunter

Heavy 300/438
Wraithknight suncannon, scatter laser

Transports 290/525
Scatter serpent, shuricannon, holo field
Scatter serpent, shuricannon, holo field

I would consider swapping out a couple of things to get an aegis, but I think the two anti-air serpents should have me covered on the air front. This is not a list I would personally want to play with the semi-death star and multiple similar units, I prefer a bit more balance, but I was trying to think of a way to use this FOC in an extreme way.