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Hey there!

Short version of this question:
Can an overlord with the Phaeron option join a unit with heavy weapons that have moved in the moving phase, immediately giving it relentless and allow it to shoot and assault in the upcoming phases of the same turn?

Background story:
This is my first post here, thank you all for great information about interpretations of tricky rules I found during my googling.
I'm a beginner in 40k and just building up my first army - a Necron one.

I have 6 wraiths coming up and when reading around about them, I found lots of info on how useless the Transdimensional Beamer is for such an agile unit.
Even if using a Phaeron, the slowdown this would cause to the unit would be way too much of a limitation.

However, one question popped into my head when reading the 6th ed rules about Individual Characters and how they can join other units.

Lets say I have up to 20" between my Phaeron (maybe he is leading a unit of Warriors) and my Wraiths with Transdimensional Beamer. If they move straight towards each other, the Phaeron can join the Wraiths in the movement phase.
This would give the Wraiths the Relentless ability, which should mean they can fire their beamers immediately, even if they moved during the movement phase before they where joined by the Phaeron?

Then, they can also Assault (but I guess here they will not be able to take benefit from their jump pack even if they haven't used it, i.e. reroll and Hammer of Wrath, correct me if I'm wrong)

In the next round, if the Wraiths need to move far again, they could just leave the Phaeron Overlord behind to go back to it's old unit.

I am not sure if this tactics would be incredibly useful, but what I'm wondering at first, is this tactic legal? or have I missed something in the rules?
If it is legal, any ideas on how to use it?

The reason I'm asking is because I've read several discussions on how useless the Transdimensional Beamer is, but I couldn't find anyone mentioning the option for the Phaeron to join and leave the Wraiths, the only thing mentioned was how much he would slow them down if he walked with them hand in hand =)

Have a nice day,
Jay

Yes; the unit gains use of "relentless" and there is no proviso that this had to be during the turn.

IT was like the old trick from the 4th edition tau empire codex, where you could use an A.S.S. to give yourself S&P, but nothing said you had to declare use of it prior to moving - so you could move 6" (in 4th / 5th) rather than making a difficult terrain roll and then declare usage

Oh, and you are I think getting your rules mixed up - relentless is the rule that lets you move and fire heavy (etc ) weapons as if you were stationary, then assault afterwards. Rending is the abilty that alters what happens when you wound on a "6" or armour penetrate with a "6"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes; the unit gains use of "relentless" and there is no proviso that this had to be during the turn.

IT was like the old trick from the 4th edition tau empire codex, where you could use an A.S.S. to give yourself S&P, but nothing said you had to declare use of it prior to moving - so you could move 6" (in 4th / 5th) rather than making a difficult terrain roll and then declare usage

Oh, and you are I think getting your rules mixed up - relentless is the rule that lets you move and fire heavy (etc ) weapons as if you were stationary, then assault afterwards. Rending is the abilty that alters what happens when you wound on a "6" or armour penetrate with a "6"

Doh, yes of course you're right, i meant Relentless. Changed it now, thank you!

So, any takes on whether this could be useful and how? I'm kind of thinking that it could enable using the mobility of the Wraiths but enabling an extra powerful attack if the enemy is closing in on your troops.
I suppose you would have to make quite a lot of damage to make it worth the cost.

It just isnt very points efficient - you can get more killing by having your harder hitting guns on other models to the wraith.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It just isnt very points efficient - you can get more killing by having your harder hitting guns on other models to the wraith.

That's not the point though, obviously.

To answer the OP, yes, this is 100% legal, if not a particularly useful tactic.

jay_mo wrote:

Lets say I have up to 20" between my Phaeron (maybe he is leading a unit of Warriors) and my Wraiths with Transdimensional Beamer. If they move straight towards each other, the Phaeron can join the Wraiths in the movement phase.
This would give the Wraiths the Relentless ability, which should mean they can fire their beamers immediately, even if they moved during the movement phase before they where joined by the Phaeron?

I don't see how you would be able to bridge a 20" gap with the Wraiths only being able to move 12" (if they use their jumppack) and the unit with the Phaeron only being able to move 6". You'd come 2" short.

Also if your Phaeron actually is in a unit (with warriors for example) then you can forget about this idea already, because you can't leave a unit and then join another one in the same movement phase.

It's somewhere under the rules for Independant Characters in the BRB (don't have it with me at the moment though).

Hope to have helped.

Nick

2" short is fine though as you only have to be within 2" to join the wraiths

Senari wrote:

jay_mo wrote:

Lets say I have up to 20" between my Phaeron (maybe he is leading a unit of Warriors) and my Wraiths with Transdimensional Beamer. If they move straight towards each other, the Phaeron can join the Wraiths in the movement phase.
This would give the Wraiths the Relentless ability, which should mean they can fire their beamers immediately, even if they moved during the movement phase before they where joined by the Phaeron?

I don't see how you would be able to bridge a 20" gap with the Wraiths only being able to move 12" (if they use their jumppack) and the unit with the Phaeron only being able to move 6". You'd come 2" short.

An IC within 2" of a unit joins the unit

Senari wrote:Also if your Phaeron actually is in a unit (with warriors for example) then you can forget about this idea already, because you can't leave a unit and then join another one in the same movement phase.

It's somewhere under the rules for Independant Characters in the BRB (don't have it with me at the moment though).

Hope to have helped.

Nick

That isnt actually a rule. At all. You cannot embark and disembark a vehicle in the same turn, but there is no such restriction on ICs joining and leaving units. Page 39.

Thank you for your answers, now I know it is fully doable.

I would say that if someone would motivate the statement that transdimensional beamer is worthless even with Phaeron because it slows down the unit, it is somewhat solved using this tactics, since 20" is a pretty big area that you can stay within.

You could mostly use it as a form of defensive measure, and If it still isn't good enough to pay for is a different matter =)
Maybe I'll try it some time just for the fun of it...

jay_mo wrote:
Thank you for your answers, now I know it is fully doable.

I would say that if someone would motivate the statement that transdimensional beamer is worthless even with Phaeron because it slows down the unit, it is somewhat solved using this tactics, since 20" is a pretty big area that you can stay within.

You could mostly use it as a form of defensive measure, and If it still isn't good enough to pay for is a different matter =)
Maybe I'll try it some time just for the fun of it...

Maybe phaeron would be decent in a unit of spyders with particle beamers.

The IC would benefit from majority T6 and the spyders would be able to move and shoot their beamers.

Spyders are MCs and are therefore already Relentless.

Hope the OP doesn't mind me asking this since it avoids another topic being posted when it seems relevant to this one.

Say you join that Overlord with Phaeron (granting Relentless) to a unit of Artillery like the Sentry Pylons from FW (all are heavy weapon type), would they be able to move and shoot?

Artillery section states - Gun models cannot be fired if they moved at all in that turns movement phase.
Relentless states - Relentless models can shoot with Heavy weapons, counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase.

Does the Relentless rule precede the Artillery rules?

It is the exact same situation as SnP. The rule would have to specifically mention Artillery to be allowed to fire the gun model after it moves.

If what you say is true then neither Relentless or SnP would work for any type of model as both of them do not mention anything but the type of weapons the models would be allowed to fire as counting as stationary, they do not specify unit types allowed to use the rule.

Edit for clarification - SnP applies to the unit, Relentless is to the model that has it, Phaeron grants Relentless to the Overlord and any unit he is attached with.

Userarm wrote:
If what you say is true then neither Relentless or SnP would work for any type of model as both of them do not mention anything but the type of weapons the models would be allowed to fire as counting as stationary, they do not specify unit types allowed to use the rule.

Edit for clarification - SnP applies to the unit, Relentless is to the model that has it, Phaeron grants Relentless to the Overlord and any unit he is attached with.

Artillery has two restrictions. One, they cannot fire if they moved. Two, they cannot fire snap shots. Relentless avoids the second, but not the first.

Rigeld2 Thank you for the clear explanation, i'm due to have a battle in 30mins or so and wanted to be sure before i fielded such a unit that i use them correctly.