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Hey all,

So this question came up when looking at the new Crimson Slaughter Supplement. Is there any rule that describes or could allow you to handle the potential situation where a squad of Possessed are embarked upon a transport and when rolling on the "Slaves to the Voices" chart your squad's unit type changes from Infantry to Beast?
I've been looking at the Transport rules to see if there is anything that might cover this, but while on page 78 they state the following:

A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity.

So my "HIWPI" would be that if you roll that value on "Slaves to the Voices" you would immediately disembark as you would be contravening the above rule to keep them in there. But I'm not sure if that's really how you should deal with it. If it is the best way to handle the issue it does raise the problem that you're now Beasts that can only move up to 6" from the transport.

If anyone has a better idea of how to handle the situation or if there's some blatantly obvious rule I'm overlooking if you could clarify this for me that'd be fantastic.

What is the trigger that causes them to roll and become beasts?

Uptopdownunder wrote:
What is the trigger that causes them to roll and become beasts?

Sorry, "Slaves to the Voices" is the rule which replaces "Vessels of Chaos" for the Possessed Unit. The relevant rule is below:

...Instead, roll a D3 on the table below at the beginning of each controlling player’s turn. The mutation affects every Possessed model in the unit and lasts until the start of the controlling player’s next turn:

Beast form: The unit's type changes from Infantry to Beasts

That's a tricky one but I'd be tempted to allow the unit to remain embarked as they were Infantry when they embarked.

The 6" only move when you get out is the price you pay I guess, all those horns and tentacles getting in the way.

This feels like black hole level of missing rules, all answers are going to be 'house rules' designed to fix it. I could cobble together a few twisted and broken arguments but it would take more research then I can do from my workplace before I even found a place to begin. Personally I'm with UpTopDownUnder here: Their status was checked when they embarked. That would probably be where I start on trying to figure out a semi-Rule as Written supported conclusion to this very unusual puzzle, seeing if the restriction is found in the section detailing how a unit embarks into a transport and building on from there.

Whatever that conclusion is would be a stretch, but I think we all are stretching on this one.

Champion of chaos should be a vector point since it changes type as well occasionally


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Checked the rule and it offers a solution

From my knowledge, the Champion of Choas has a trigger that requires the model to successfully win a challenge before rolling on the table and this would be an amazing task for a unit embarked into a transport to achieve.

JinxDragon wrote:
From my knowledge, the Champion of Choas has a trigger that requires the model to successfully win a challenge before rolling on the table and this would be an amazing task for a unit embarked into a transport to achieve.

Nope. If the Champ helps kill a character with shooting, he gets to roll as well.

JinxDragon wrote:
...the Champion of Choas has a trigger that requires the model to successfully win a challenge...

First off, that's incorrect; while the rule does require them to issue and accept challenges wherever possible, the trigger for the roll is merely killing an enemy character. You can totally get it by firing a bolt pistol out of a rhino, it's just rather less likely.

Second, it hardly matters. It is a slightly similar rule and it does have a specific description of what happens if you become a Beast (or Monstrous Creature) while in a vehicle, so if you're looking for a precedent, it's the best one around, and it doesn't hurt that it's similar to "normal" involuntary disembarkation.

EDIT: RaW, the rule just breaks; you have no permission to remain there nor to get out.

I agree it does give a bit of a pointer but it is significantly different in that it is a permanent change, it is the replacement of the model with a different type of model and it only affects a single model.

I would play it as the CoC rule. They fall out of the transport growling and flailing just in time so that they do not break the game.

Pyrian and HappyJew,
Yeah, I overlooked that part while trying to go off nothing but memory... think I would remember the debate that formed around 'how do you know if the champion killed the character' thread a few months ago.

Very weird indeed. If they fall out of the transport on the beginning of the turn can they still move and assault normally? This effectively allows possessed to assault from a stationary rhino (if they roll beast type that turn). Because that's typically not allowed I'd probably say they remain embarked and treat the transport rules as if they were infantry. It seems the least drastic change.

This makes me think of a related scenario since CoC is being used as a reference. If a Lord shoots a unit out of a rhino hatch killing a character. He turns into spawn, falling out of the rhino. Can he then assault? An extremely unlikely scenario (the shooting a character part, not the turning to spawn part) but seems relevant.

Falling out would still use the disembark rules. And since you can't assault if you disembark from a non-assault vehicle...

JubbJubbz wrote:
If they fall out of the transport on the beginning of the turn can they still move and assault normally?

They cannot assault out of a rhino this way, as they have disembarked that turn. I'm not sure whether they could move normally; the rules I've read don't particularly clarify the answer. I'd probably allow it.

I suppose the argument is that Champions of Chaos doesn't tell you to Disembark but instead you simply place the model within 3" of the vehicle on which it the original model was embarked. The new Spawn or Prince model was never embarked in the first place.
This is why I'm not sure it's the best fitting rule for working out what to do in this situation since Spawndom or Dark Apotheosis will not usually happen at the start of the Movement phase and there is no clarification on what movement is allowed. Plus the Possessed Models are still present and were Embarked at the start of the turn.

Thankfully I'm not a tournament player so if I do decide to take these Possessed models I think I'll just have to sit down and figure out a house rule to handle this scenario.

Technically speaking, and HIWPI the transport rules only prohibit non-infantry models from embarking onto a transport. The rules have no qualms with the non infantry models being on board transports, just the actual act of embarking. Up until now there was no other way to get a non-infantry model aboard a transport as even deploying within the transport meant you embarked before deployment. So I'd be fine with an infantry unit comprised entirly of models with the beast unit type being on board a tranport, and I would also have no issues with them disembarking. I would only have issue with said unit turning around and trying to embark again.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Technically speaking, and HIWPI the transport rules only prohibit non-infantry models from embarking onto a transport. The rules have no qualms with the non infantry models being on board transports, just the actual act of embarking. Up until now there was no other way to get a non-infantry model aboard a transport as even deploying within the transport meant you embarked before deployment. So I'd be fine with an infantry unit comprised entirly of models with the beast unit type being on board a tranport, and I would also have no issues with them disembarking. I would only have issue with said unit turning around and trying to embark again.

with the exceptions of the thunderhawk and manta which can carry vehicles.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Technically speaking, and HIWPI the transport rules only prohibit non-infantry models from embarking onto a transport. The rules have no qualms with the non infantry models being on board transports, just the actual act of embarking. Up until now there was no other way to get a non-infantry model aboard a transport as even deploying within the transport meant you embarked before deployment. So I'd be fine with an infantry unit comprised entirly of models with the beast unit type being on board a tranport, and I would also have no issues with them disembarking. I would only have issue with said unit turning around and trying to embark again.

Actually, the rules clearly say a vehicle "can carry a single infantry unit", and then goes on to say only infantry can embark it. So tecnically, the vehicle can not hold or be embarked by non infantry.
Either way, its an awful rule for any posessed unit riding in a transport.
There is a 33% chanse you cripple your movement and leave your expencive unit out in the open every turn you are in a transport.

 Fayric wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Technically speaking, and HIWPI the transport rules only prohibit non-infantry models from embarking onto a transport. The rules have no qualms with the non infantry models being on board transports, just the actual act of embarking. Up until now there was no other way to get a non-infantry model aboard a transport as even deploying within the transport meant you embarked before deployment. So I'd be fine with an infantry unit comprised entirly of models with the beast unit type being on board a tranport, and I would also have no issues with them disembarking. I would only have issue with said unit turning around and trying to embark again.

Actually, the rules clearly say a vehicle "can carry a single infantry unit", and then goes on to say only infantry can embark it. So tecnically, the vehicle can not hold or be embarked by non infantry.
Either way, its an awful rule for any posessed unit riding in a transport.
There is a 33% chanse you cripple your movement and leave your expencive unit out in the open every turn you are in a transport.

I thought of that as well. This is a permission and does not actually deny anything so their is nothing technically illegal about carrying beasts. They are not allowed to take the action of embarking but nothing says they cannot be in an embarked state and round about permission for such a state is given. Looks RAW legal to me.

I don't know where this notion that the restriction is just on embarking. It's like - did you not read the preceding paragraph? The first one? Stop skipping the first part of the rule.

Main rulebook, page 78, Transport Capacity:
"Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded. A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."
Underline added, bold in original.

"...can never be exceeded...", people.

A transmogrified unit of chosen doesn't exceed the capacity though.

Pyrian wrote:
I don't know where this notion that the restriction is just on embarking. It's like - did you not read the preceding paragraph? The first one? Stop skipping the first part of the rule.

Main rulebook, page 78, Transport Capacity:
"Each Transport vehicle has a maximum passenger capacity that can never be exceeded. A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity."
Underline added, bold in original.

"...can never be exceeded...", people.

How does carrying a unit of beasts exceed the transports 'single infantry unit' capacity? That rule only limits the number of infantry units, not beasts.

It seems they figured that if they only allow infantry to embark then they'd only have infantry embarked. That's reasonable. They should have thought of this when allowing units to change type though.

RAW - legal
RAI - No freaking way!
HYWPI - Up to you but I'd suggest 'must immediately disembark' as a house rule though just to keep it simple.

I think personally as a house rule I'd go with must immediately disembark up to 12", they follow all other restrictions for shooting and assault caused by disembarking. Maybe not RAW, or RAI, but a fair way to play in a fun game with friends that doesn't entirely ruin the turn for the player.

Uptopdownunder wrote:A transmogrified unit of chosen doesn't exceed the capacity though.

Sure it does. It is entirely in excess of one unit of infantry.

Abandon wrote:How does carrying a unit of beasts exceed the transports 'single infantry unit' capacity?

By being in excess of one unit of infantry. Not complicated.

Abandon wrote:That rule only limits the number of infantry units, not beasts.

Balderdash. It limits the total capacity; any model which does not fit into that capacity is excess.

I think we can all agree that the rules do not cover what happens when the Possessed become Beasts.

HIWPI, the unit would be forced to disembark immediately so as to minimise the amount of time "illegally" embarked on the transport.

Sadly, this means that putting CS Possessed in any transport (except one that can carry Beasts, as rare as they may be) may be too risky to try.

How many infantry are embarked?

Edit: If a rule tells you that a container has a capacity limit of 3 bricks does that limit the number of cookies it can hold? No.

 Abandon wrote:
How many infantry are embarked?

Edit: If a rule tells you that a container has a capacity limit of 3 bricks does that limit the number of cookies it can hold? No.

However, if you lack a rule to say that the container may carry cookies, then you are not allowed to carry those cookies in the container.

Then again, if a spacewolf lord take two pet wolfs, they may ride in a transport vehicle with their master as long as you dont exeed the transport capacity (ferisian wolves count as two medels).
This is specified in the SW codex, but dont apply to units of fenrisisn wolves. Because they count more as wargear (edit: the lords pet wolves count as wargear, not the unit wolves).

To complicate things further, a SW iron priest can include two wolfes to his unit along with servitors. These are added to the unit, not bought as wargear, and there is no clarificaton if they may ride in a vehicle.

FWIW, I'd treat it just like Champion of Chaos rule and place them within 3" of the transport. Then, since it was the start of the player turn, they could move (but not assault) normally.

That sucks for them, rules-wise, so I could see a cost/benefit/rules logic argument being made for letting them stay in the transport (it's not like they change base size or anything). I wouldn't object to that, since they aren't suddenly transmogrifying into bigger models which would not fit into a transport (unlike the Champion of Chaos transformation).

However, within the 'spirit of the game' (oh, dear!), it does seem to make sense that ferrying around an entire unit of Chaos Marines possessed by daemons of the warp might be a bit chancy. If anyone is going to go nuts and leap out of their ride, Possessed do seem to be the most likely candidates.

It would have been much better if GW had just said that this result "allowed the unit to move and assault as if their unit type was Beasts".