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I hear a lot of complaints about these guys other than there flyer is godlike.

Im seriously interested in starting CSM as they look so cool, but the Helldrake isnt something I wanna run, quite a few whiney players at my FLGS.

Is there any units I should stay clear from, or does it not matter if I go Noise marines, Khorne berserkerz etc.

The thousand sons are something Im really interested in atm along with the Khorne style of CSM.

Units to steer clear from: Dark Apsotkes, Lucius the Eternal, Warpsmiths, Helbrutes, Possessed, Muitilators, Chosen, Khorne Bezerkers, Thousand Sons, Chaos Space Marines, Warp Talons, and the Defiler are terrible units that you should avoid using.

It's an uphill battle running power armoured chaos marines.

If you dont want to run Heldrakes, then Spawn and Bikers are good.

The internet grossly exaggerates. CSM in general isn't that bad, and helldrakes are way, way overrated.

As for what you should take, that really depends on what you want to take. There are only a few real stinkers in the codex, and even then, those can be made to work if you can carve out a niche for them, and then don't overinvest. Likewise, there isn't anything in the codex that's grossly overpowered, no matter how much people who don't know what displacement is complain about the helldrake. You'd get people whining at you, true, and if you don't want that, then don't take that unit, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head that gets whiney angst.

Really, just make the kind of CSM list that you want to make. There's a lot of opportunity.

If what you want to do is make a 1ksons list, you can certainly do that. The best way is to play to the strengths, which means really playing the cover game well. With your invul saves, you don't need cover, and with your everything Ap3 or better, your opponent always will. If you can really make use of that board control ability, you'll be able to do okay. Well, that and you can bog down dedicated-anti-MEq stuff in close combat.

The only glaring weakness to tzeentch lists is anti-tank, as soulfire Ap3 bolters can handle pretty much everything else. 1ksons don't get access to meltaguns, though, so you've got to either add some of those in (4++ combi-melta terminators you say?) or else get some lascannons in there (that can also take soulfire). I'd imagine that a tzeentch variation on the raider rush could get pretty ugly as well.

Anyways, the CSM codex is a lot less cut and dry than other codices out there. It's going to be more productive to tell us what you want, and we'll tell you how to make it good, rather than asking us what is good, and then taking that.

A few real stinkers? Have your read the codex? Problem with CSMs is that there are only a limited amount of competitive options, which is why you see so much Heldrake spam. There was a lot of criticism in 5th of cookie cutter lists [twin lash Daemon Princes springs to mind] but that was because there were very few viable options. And the 6th edition codex did nothing to improve this. My Emperor's Children have been sitting on the shelf collecting dust since the new dex dropped and I can't see that changing for a good few years. Plus the new models are horrible [aside from the cultists].

Noise Marines are actually okay.

Not a top tier unit, so much Ignores Cover is actually pretty good.

tyrannosaurus wrote:A few real stinkers? Have your read the codex?

Yes.

tyrannosaurus wrote:Problem with CSMs is that there are only a limited amount of competitive options, which is why you see so much Heldrake spam. There was a lot of criticism in 5th of cookie cutter lists

That's a problem with CSM players, not the CSM codex.

If you can't figure out how to use what's in the codex, then naturally you're going to default onto the easiest list to use.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Noise Marines are actually okay.

Not a top tier unit, so much Ignores Cover is actually pretty good.

It's good against anything with a 4+ or worse save as long as you're in a decent piece of cover yourself and don't have to move. I have very rarely encountered all 3 criteria at the same time. I much preferred the assault 2/heavy 3 rules in 5th.

To be fair, the option to play mono god is quite restricted compared to previous books. Not that that really correlates with the "competitive" argument.

With the release of the Helbrute we are getting a bit closer to a unified look. The Forgefiend/Maulerfiend/Heldrake have been fairly divisive in terms of looks, but plenty of conversion tutorials exist to rectify these issues should you so desire.

The Chaos Codex does have a lot of options in it to make a force based around things that you might like. I'd maybe have a look for the models you really like and then go from there.

*sigh*

If you never got past "heldrake + plaguemarine 101" stage before running off to a new army why do you insist on posting in threads like these.

I object to the Thousand Sons being rubbish. They are rather effective against PA heavy SM lists. AP 3 Bolters are not to be trifled with

And noise marines aren't bad either. With salvo and ignores cover, they outshoot most other troops choices, and with being I5 CCW+BP MEq, they beat most TEq, MEq and GEq (and vehicles, of course) in close combat.

The problem with 1k Sons is that they aren't any more durable to small arms fire, which is generally what kills Marines. When getting shot at by scatter lasers/serpent shields, and the like, you're actually less durable because you're paying so much more per model. Slow and Purposeful is also pretty rough. That said, you can make a decent 1k Sons list, and adding a Herald of Tzeentch (great force multiplier for Chaos Marines) is actually fluffy.

Drakes are at least somewhat overrated, but their real strength is their ability to root out hidden Troops units (like Eldar Jetbikes) that other Armies don't have a good answer for. That said, the "best" current Chaos Marines list is probaby Spawntide, which generally only takes one Drake (if any). (Note: best is subjective, but if you use GT results Spawntide is on top, however that's a bad metric because it's a small sample size, and a smaller still one if you take out James Watkins, who is the guy mostly cleaning up with it)

But Spawntide is basically a bunch of Chaos Spawn escorting around some combination of a Nurgle Bike Lord, a Khorne Juggerlord, Abaddon and a bike Sorcerer (often a Last Memories Sorc). Fast, durable, and killy.

CSM are good fun, they might not have the best army in the game, but they can out together quite a nasty list.

We have a powerful HQ section, with some brilliant special characters and powerful units. We can have absolute Beatstick lords who can break an entire unit apart in one combat phase.

Our troops are enhanced by the fact that a lord can bring in cult troops to strengthen it. Plague Marines are the bees knees and if you stick them in a piece of terrain they will shrug off everything short of a demolisher cannon.

Fast attack is our strong suit, with the infamous Heldrake that makes marines wet their trousers and beg for mercy. Spawn make excellent holders for our lords, and a squad of them can take a hell of a lot of punishment.

Heavy support has the good old Obliterator, which aren't as good as they used to be but they are still excellent units. We also have access to many other interesting units, such as Walking Dragons and the standard array of marine tanks.

TL;DR worship the dark gods and pick whatever you want.

 Ailaros wrote:
And noise marines aren't bad either. With salvo and ignores cover, they outshoot most other troops choices, and with being I5 CCW+BP MEq, they beat most TEq, MEq and GEq (and vehicles, of course) in close combat.

Did you just ignore my post? Salvo is only useful if the models don't move, and ignores cover is only useful against non-power armoured troops. I would take assault2/heavy 3 any day.

I agree with the two above me, my word bearers dose not include any Heldrakes, Plauge Marines, Spawns or bikes.
But do sport regular Chaos Marines, a dark apostel and a defiler. All have done well in battels past and will do well in battels to come, one can not just simply play them like regular SM or some of the more easy to play armies.

And I also agree with the notion that Thousand sons and Noise marines are good enough for their roles.
The thing with 6th CSm is that they requier a lot of thinking before hand when you field them

 tyrannosaurus wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
And noise marines aren't bad either. With salvo and ignores cover, they outshoot most other troops choices, and with being I5 CCW+BP MEq, they beat most TEq, MEq and GEq (and vehicles, of course) in close combat.

Did you just ignore my post? Salvo is only useful if the models don't move, and ignores cover is only useful against non-power armoured troops. I would take assault2/heavy 3 any day.

Salvo also works if you toss an unmarked sorcerer in the unit with 3 rolls on biomancy. Dark gods be willing you might get the one which gives them relentless.

Are salvo bolters better than normal bolters when you sit still? Yes. Are ignores cover bolter better than normal bolters when you move? Yes. Are I5 marines beatier in close combat than most stuff? Yes.

You don't need to make use of all three of these abilities every turn to make them strong points of noise marines.

And plague marines and 1ksons are both more durable. Yes, 1ksons aren't better against bolters and lasguns, but plague marines aren't as durable as 1ksons against plasma, or anti-tank weapons, or the really scary close combat stuff.

Yes, there are more bolters and scatter lasers than CC MCs and DCCW's, so nurgle marines are generally tougher than 1ksons, but that doesn't mean that 1ksons aren't more durable than regular MEq.

Plus, 1ksons do more damage than plague marines, which is part of their trade off.

Man reading through this thred makes me sad. My first army (I started in 6E) was CSM, and I love them.

Ignore the interweb, you can build some nice lists and more importantly fun lists.

But really, if you like the look and fluff of the CSM's go for it.

Last game I played, a Heldrake was shot out of the air the turn after it arrived. Destroyed about half its cost in models.

Also played 3 mutilators all in individual elite slots. The first punched the warlord to death. The second stormed a gunline and tied them up for linebreaker. The third punched a land raider to death, then re-enforced the 2nd, and chased enemy troops off the last objective.

If you think about what you're playing, people will have to think to defeat you.

I personally am going to say screw it and play CSM, using CSMs because I like the models and that's how a CSM army should be, with a few extras such as daemon engines, but make it still appear Marine-like as I'm going to be using the Crimson Slaughter book which is a relatively new renegade chapter. I'm sure I'll have fun doing it and hopefully while it won't be WAAC competitive it will be able to hold its own against non-WAAC armies.

My advice is quite simply to play what you like, unless your meta is entirely WAAC and netlists in which case sadly you should play the netlists as losing every single game, doubly so when through no fault of your own, will quickly make you quit.

I agree with those who say play what you like and have fun. Yes the defiler is over costed by 50 points, but its still fun to drop pie plates on things that have been clustered together.

Lucius the Eternal may not be the best stated HQ choice, but he is hella fun in most challenges and if you get hot with his armor saves, bouncing back all those S4 AP2 hits just brings a smile.

The trick with csm is to focus your efforts. You can't just take a little bit of everything. A lot of things in the book can be pretty cheap points wise and so spamming a few useful units doesn't cost too much. This is really much more noticable in lower point games.

Thousand Sons look awesome and put out a lot of hurt; to protect them from small-arms fire you can just use smaller squads (e.g. max 10) and stuff 'em in Rhinos. (the use of which is argued extensively elsewhere)
As for berserkers, see if you can find some batreps to get an idea how they work/how to play 'em/what not to do with 'em. Ailaros used large model counts of berserkers for a couple matches he wrote up a while back, good reads.

GLHF with Chaos, they're a fun army!

Use PLAGUE MARIIIIIIINES

Defensive grenades, assault grenades, CCW+Bolt Pistol, poisoned weapons, FNP, T5, and Fearless yeahhhhhh

 TedNugent wrote:
Use PLAGUE MARIIIIIIINES

Defensive grenades, assault grenades, CCW+Bolt Pistol, poisoned weapons, FNP, T5, and Fearless yeahhhhhh

Don't forget Krak grenades too. In case you run into a tank or something.

Best way to start an army (for non-tournament players) is pick stuff you like and go from there. Will the stuff always be super effective? No. But you'll enjoy using it more because it's what you want to play and you'll find a way to make it work for you better.

This can apply to tournament players too, but only if you're willing to run the risk of taking things that aren't considered optimal by the internet. It's a lot of personal choice.

To start my Crimson Slaughter army I just picked up the CSM Battle Force. Looks like a good deal, I just don't know how I'm going to properly use those Terminators.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Best way to start an army (for non-tournament players) is pick stuff you like and go from there. Will the stuff always be super effective? No. But you'll enjoy using it more because it's what you want to play and you'll find a way to make it work for you better.

This can apply to tournament players too, but only if you're willing to run the risk of taking things that aren't considered optimal by the internet. It's a lot of personal choice.

To start my Crimson Slaughter army I just picked up the CSM Battle Force. Looks like a good deal, I just don't know how I'm going to properly use those Terminators.

If all else fails, kitbash the Terminators into some Oblits. Oblits, like Chaos Spawn, are just more fun if you make them yourself.

 anonymou5 wrote:
If all else fails, kitbash the Terminators into some Oblits. Oblits, like Chaos Spawn, are just more fun if you make them yourself.

True, that is always a good option to work with.

Also, MoK CSM with combi-weapons are pretty neat. They get all the killy of the combi-weapon drop, except then they're extra angry for the turns after that.

Once a bunch of combi-weapon/power axe terminators land, you can sort of ignore them. Once a bunch of combi-weapon/powerfist terminators with MoK and IoW drop in and shoot their weapons, your problems are just beginning.

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, MoK CSM with combi-weapons are pretty neat. They get all the killy of the combi-weapon drop, except then they're extra angry for the turns after that.

Once a bunch of combi-weapon/power axe terminators land, you can sort of ignore them. Once a bunch of combi-weapon/powerfist terminators with MoK and IoW drop in and shoot their weapons, your problems are just beginning.

A fun combo is a bunch of MoK CSM in a Land Raider with Abaddon/Khorne Lord (choice depending on points). Be'lakor hides behind the Raider (he's SOOOO small) and casts invisibility on it. Once you close the distance, Be'lakor kills one thing (ideally a MC), Abaddon another, and the MoK Marines another.