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So the main argument against HB is that it's only AP 4 which is easily negated by a cover save. But what if you gave HB to LotD who have flaming projectile and so ignore cover? Would it be worth it then?

The main argument against HB is that its AP4 is worthless against MEQ, and it's only S5 so it doesn't get the wound count out, because it's also only 3 shots. It's generally just not a good weapon.

I guess if you know the opponent will field some 4+ things.

A 36", ignores cover gun could erase some fire warrior / necron warrior squads that were trying to claim an objective, but it's not so impressive against a marine army. I think it somewhat underrated, but not necessarily good except in some situations.

As a comparison: In what situation would a Plasma Cannon perform worse? The Ignores Cover actually makes this really easy to calculate.
Obviously against Flyers, but 1/2 a hit with S5 isn't doing much against flyers anyways. (Plus, why are you using LotD for AA?)
Against a T6 3+ Save MC, a Plasma Cannon will get 1 hit, 2/3rds of a wound. A Heavy Bolter always gets 2 hits, and causes about 1/4 of a wound. Advantage Plasma Cannon.
Against Space Marines, a Plasma Cannon will get 2-3 hits against a good spread. (We'll say 2 1/2.) Usually about 2 wounds. A Heavy Bolter gets a little under half a wound. Advantage Plasma Cannon.
Against Fire Warriors, the Plasma Cannon does the same thing: About 2 wounds. The Heavy Bolter, however, gets about 1 2/3rds wounds. Advantage... Still to the Plasma Cannon, though it's closer.

For 5 points, a Plasma Cannon is just generally better. Ignoring Cover AND all Armor is fantastic. The only disadvantage is Gets Hot!, which is fairly uncommon.

If you use them as your primary army, and you roll the one warlord trait that gives your bolsters 2D6 for armor pen...HB are not bad

Johnnytorrance wrote:
If you use them as your primary army, and you roll the one warlord trait that gives your bolsters 2D6 for armor pen...HB are not bad

Planning around a particular warlord traits roll is never a good idea.

 Kain wrote:

Johnnytorrance wrote:
If you use them as your primary army, and you roll the one warlord trait that gives your bolsters 2D6 for armor pen...HB are not bad

Planning around a particular warlord traits roll is never a good idea.

It doesn't hurt to take a single HB in the army for it

Units in cover tend to be bunched up tight, making the blast a better option. HBs work better on troops in the open, who have the room to maximize unit spacing, so the plasma cannon is only hitting one or two.

What really hurts the humble heavy bolter is the opportunity cost of not taking something better. Sure, it can cash regular xenos troopers in rolls, but frankly what can’t? All the other heavy weapons can do that, and more. Tacking ignore cover on top makes them even better.

I love HBs. But I have a hard time justifying the ones I put in normal squads. Squandering a deep striking, S&P, ignore cover heavy weapon slot on one borders on criminal.

Ignore cover is nice but it still has all the same problems of the normal HB. With just one in a squad its not worth losing the mobility of the squad to fire it. If you get more than one in a squad its probably a HS slot and you really want heavier hitters in those slots. Honestly I think they are mostly worth their 10pts but they should compete with special weapons not heavies. If my chaos chosen could take a squad with 4 or 5 of them in the elites slot I'd be all over it.

Except when you roll in with your ignore cover plasma canons do you still expect those Xenos troops to still be bunched up in cover? If the plasma canon with ignores cover is outperforming the HB something has gone seriously wrong for the enemy. (You seem to ignore scatter and Gets Hot in your math).

Well, I mean they are cowards and mostly led by commanders using antiquated tactics that cannot hope to adapt to the Imperium's new tactics, but still...


I mean I wouldn't take the HB if I were only taking a single squad, but I can see the use to have some diversity in weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JubbJubbz wrote:
Ignore cover is nice but it still has all the same problems of the normal HB. With just one in a squad its not worth losing the mobility of the squad to fire it. If you get more than one in a squad its probably a HS slot and you really want heavier hitters in those slots. Honestly I think they are mostly worth their 10pts but they should compete with special weapons not heavies. If my chaos chosen could take a squad with 4 or 5 of them in the elites slot I'd be all over it.

LotD are elites in a special inquisition-like slot and I believe they are relentless, solving the mobility issue.

Heavy Bolters were all over the meta under the white dwarf Sisters codex, where they were 5 points apiece and could rend every turn.

Now they're 10 points and only rend once a game, they've completely disappeared again. The solution is clear: Heavy Bolters are worth 5 points, not 10.

Waaaghpower wrote:
As a comparison: In what situation would a Plasma Cannon perform worse? The Ignores Cover actually makes this really easy to calculate.
Obviously against Flyers, but 1/2 a hit with S5 isn't doing much against flyers anyways. (Plus, why are you using LotD for AA?)
Against a T6 3+ Save MC, a Plasma Cannon will get 1 hit, 2/3rds of a wound. A Heavy Bolter always gets 2 hits, and causes about 1/4 of a wound. Advantage Plasma Cannon.
Against Space Marines, a Plasma Cannon will get 2-3 hits against a good spread. (We'll say 2 1/2.) Usually about 2 wounds. A Heavy Bolter gets a little under half a wound. Advantage Plasma Cannon.
Against Fire Warriors, the Plasma Cannon does the same thing: About 2 wounds. The Heavy Bolter, however, gets about 1 2/3rds wounds. Advantage... Still to the Plasma Cannon, though it's closer.

For 5 points, a Plasma Cannon is just generally better. Ignoring Cover AND all Armor is fantastic. The only disadvantage is Gets Hot!, which is fairly uncommon.

As much as I agree with you, you are skewing your 'data' heavily in your favour.
The accuracy of the plasma cannon and gets hot is something you haven't taken into consideration at all.
Plasma cannon hitting 3 models vs a well spread squad? I doubt it most of the time. We are talking about an optimal situation here with a lucky scatter roll. If the plasma cannon is getting 2 1/2 hits as you say, then the HB should be hitting 3 out of 3 shots to make it a fair comparison.

Also, Gets hot is fairly uncommon? Your gun has a 16% chance to not fire at all. This lowers all of your statistical average damage outputs by 16%.

Plasma is still the way to go with them however, don't get me wrong. Just don't expect your plasma cannon to get 2 wounds average a turn, because it won't.

Frankly, I often get 4 or more hits with PCs, so I was low-balling. The key is to make sure not to let your opponent decide how you attack them, there are lots of ways to target opponents in clusters.
If you have a scary shooting unit, they'll cluster models behind cover to block LOS. Those clusters are easy pickings.
Blowing up transports is a personal favorite of mine. They have to deploy all the models in the footprint of the vehicle, so you get a fethload of models in a teensy little area. Ramming a squad with tanks can funnel them around, too.
Even without that, there's always going to be a target somewhere that is worthwhile to shoot at and has several models just a bit too close together.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Heavy Bolters were all over the meta under the white dwarf Sisters codex, where they were 5 points apiece and could rend every turn.

Now they're 10 points and only rend once a game, they've completely disappeared again. The solution is clear: Heavy Bolters are worth 5 points, not 10.

We'll, in a sisters army they only have to compete with multi melta and heavy flamers (well, and exorcists in the slot).