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I have all but decided to start a Crimson Slaughter CSM army after reading the novellas and supplement. I want to stay largely true to the background material, so this means keeping the army Undivided; my overall idea is to make parallels with a loyalist Marine army (e.g. a core of CSM squads, maybe Raptors or Bikes, maybe Havocs) and then include some daemon engines to solidify the fact that they are corrupted renegades. With that said I like the visuals of the following units:

* Terminators
* Raptors
* Bikers
* CSMs
* Havocs
* Heldrake
* Forgefiend
* Maulerfiend
* Helbrute
* Vehicles (e.g. Rhinos, Predators)
* Daemon Prince

I already know the Heldrake is an uber-unit and will most definitely want to field one. A lot of the other units don't seem to be that great but could I make a fairly decently playing army with a chance of winning if I didn't resort to things like Nurgle bikers/lord/oblits (I don't care much for Obliterators anyways, and would prefer to keep everything Undivided)? In particular I really like the look of the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend and want to include at least one; I'd like a Daemon Prince (awesome model) but they don't really fit the fluff. I'd really like to have a force that at first glance looks very much like a normal Space Marine force, and then has the daemon engines.

I'm undecided (ha!) on Possessed and Cultists, but in the event I fielded cultists they'd be regular ones not marked or anything to stay with the fluff.

Some people want there to be uber-units and then nothing else be worth taking, but this isn't true, especially in the CSM codex. I think you're confusing "nothing looks good" when it's really more "nothing is that much better than everything else". It's a sign of balance, not a sign of a low-power codex.

Anyways, spam lists are almost always going to be stronger than non-spam lists, but there's nothing stopping you from playing in a tournament if you don't (or playing a regular game of 40k for that matter). Given that what you're really looking for seems to be based more on aesthetics, I'd just go with what you like.

The downside of going markless is that almost anything you want to field could be fielded better by the loyalist at the same cost, marks is what give flavor to chaos and making a good list without marks is going to be hard.

That being said if you are going for the Crimson Slaughter fluff, aren't they like... heavy on the possessed side? and hearing whispering of the dark gods all the time? that doesn't sound at all like markless marines. You can be undivided having units following different gods from the pantheon and be good to go fluffwise.

Usually the markless armies are those that refuse to worship the dark gods like Iron warriors who mutilate themselves rather than being possessed/mutated and even in those legions many marines get seduced by one of the gods so fluffwise you can go with marks imo.

Gamewise if you want to mirror a loyal list without marks, go for marines with icon of vengance, being Ld9 without ATSKNF sucks big time, maybe some cultists to be the recently corrupted human crew that go with the chapter. IF you ain't planning on using oblits then raptors with meltas or termies with combi-meltas will help you deal with the vehicles on the other side of the table while still keeping it loyalistic like, and get some havocs with autocannons besides whatever daemon engine you prefer on heavy, usually the forgefiend is better than the maulerfiend.

The fluff is iffy and only specifically mentions a warband of Berzerkers that joined up for the carnage, so technically speaking marked squads aren't ruled out completely, but it doesn't seem to fit for the regular squads at least. It's within the realm of feasibility that they encountered other groups who threw their lot in (maybe remnants of some of the other warbands they fought), but as a personal taste I'd rather limit the marks to a minority than go the typical route if for no other reason than to keep a cohesive crimson+gold color scheme on the table.

 Ailaros wrote:
I think you're confusing "nothing looks good" when it's really more "nothing is that much better than everything else". It's a sign of balance, not a sign of a low-power codex.

I thought that was the bane of power armor codex. Everything is pretty good, nothing is spectacular for under 200pt.

Cultists would fill the gaps now that they no longer have the support systems of a normal chapter to make new marines. Consider them as scouts waiting for a set of armour and probably a daemon to beef them up. Possessed would be the csm created this way. Heres 1 force org chart to give you an idea of what non spam looks like

Krannon
Secondary character of choice (probably div sorcerer)
Draznitch and Chosen with transport
Hellbrute
Suicide Termie Squad (meltaz)
3 csm squads (1 melee with flamers in rhino, 1 ranged with plasma in rhino, 1 ranged with plasma/autocannon)
2 cultist squads (1 ranged, 1melee)
1 possessed squad
Helldrake
Raptors (meltas)
Bikes (meltas)
Havocs with autocannons
Forgefiend
Obliterators (you dont like them so suicide drop them too) or maulerfiend

And you will want a fortification for the havocs, perhaps a bunker with quad gun.


Put the sorcerer with the havocs in the bunker, forgefiend behind, the csm squad with the Autocannon and the ranged cultist in cover. Krannon with chosen in transport, 2 rhinoed csm squads, raptors, bikes, and possessed move up to engage in combat or blow up vehicles. Terminators and obliterators suicide deepstrike. Helldrake comes in an lights it up, melee cultists walk on from reserve into home objective.