Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Don't know of already posted


Soda Pop Miniatures & CoolMiniOrNot End Publishing Arrangement

Published by deke, on March 19, 2014. Filed under News Relic Knights Super Dungeon Explore.



Soda Pop Miniatures and CoolMiniOrNot announce the ending of the publishing relationship of Soda Pop Miniatures titles Super Dungeon Explore™ and Relic Knights™.

“We are happy with the cooperative effort with CoolMiniOrNot over the past 3 years as publishers of our titles Super Dungeon Explore™ and Relic Knights™”, said John Cadice, Creative Director of Ninja Division. “We are now looking forward to self-publishing these titles and bringing great games to our fans everywhere!”

“As agreed with Soda Pop Miniatures, we will finish fulfilling all existing orders on these titles including those on the Relic Knights Kickstarter, and transfer full control and inventory to Soda Pop Miniatures in an orderly fashion in the coming weeks,” added Chern Ann Ng, Director at CoolMiniOrNot. “The team at CoolMiniOrNot has greatly enjoyed publishing these excellent titles. We wish Soda Pop Miniatures and Ninja Division all the best on their future plans.”

Please direct product inquiries for Super Dungeon Explore™ and Relic Knights™ to sales@ninjadivision.com.

This is great news!

...it really is!

How many pages will this go before it gets locked from finger pointing?

I don't know, but its interesting to read the announcement.

It is unusually clean for our hobby environment.

The lack of poo slinging is quite refreshing.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I don't know, but its interesting to read the announcement.

It is unusually clean for our hobby environment.

Yeah, that was a concerted effort on both parties.

I've had conversations with both, and while there's always going to be a little bit of he-said, she-said, there's surprisingly little finger pointing from either side. It's been looked at really pragmatically as a business decision, and I think that's a good thing.,

Despite CMoN coming out with Arcadia Quest (any responsible business fills gaps in their product line), they do want Ninja Pop to succeed because it was Super Dungeon that really gave them the footing to break into the board game publishing world and a lot of good growth came out of that.

In those conversations, I've been really impressed by how neutral and professional some parties in particular have been able to stay, especially in the face of all the "mistruths" being propogated on forums like this and on the KS forums, particularly regarding Relic Knights. It's a level of restraint that I'm not sure I'd be able to maintain if my company were being dragged through the mud.

But yeah, I think business wise it's a good move for both parties. I hope Ninja Pop can find their footing and figure the industry out on their own. CMoN is already there, so I think we really don't have to worry about them.

At the end of the day, it was a business decision that fits for all parties invovled, and I think thats reflected in this announcement.

I hope that being a "lame duck" doesn't cause any (more) issues with RK fulfillment from CMON.

skarsol wrote:
I hope that being a "lame duck" doesn't cause any (more) issues with RK fulfillment from CMON.

CMON didn't cause any of the issues to begin with.

And (amazingly) they're still paying to have the gak air freighted over.

It is interesting to me that CMON is seemingly not ending their business relationship with Studio McVey, even though there were similar issues there (which, imo, as was the case here were on both sides).

I don't have ill will towards either company, but I hope both get their acts together for future projects... they've both had several miscues now (CMON with Sedition Wars, even if you don't count Relic Knights).

I think Sodapop shot themselves in the foot by buying out their publishing agreement.

Sining wrote:
I think Sodapop shot themselves in the foot by buying out their publishing agreement.

How so?

Sining wrote:
I think Sodapop shot themselves in the foot by buying out their publishing agreement.

Why is that? So far their newest kickstarter appears to be a success without CMoN's help, and Relic Knights should be shipping soon. Not to mention they managed to ship out Tentacle Bento on their own. Seems like if everything eventually works out with Robotech they should be on a good footing going forward.

I'm just not sure they have the logistical or distribution know-how to be able to make sure their products reach a wider audience. At least with SDE, people could see it in normal gameshops. I have never seen tentacle bento, which is their only self-published game I think, in any game shop. Producing is one challenge, being able to distribute and make sure people keep stock of your products is another and frankly, SPM seems to have issues PRODUCING stuff as it is. I'm not sure they can handle the whole distribution/stock issue

Sining wrote:
I'm just not sure they have the logistical or distribution know-how to be able to make sure their products reach a wider audience. At least with SDE, people could see it in normal gameshops. I have never seen tentacle bento, which is their only self-published game I think, in any game shop. Producing is one challenge, being able to distribute and make sure people keep stock of your products is another and frankly, SPM seems to have issues PRODUCING stuff as it is. I'm not sure they can handle the whole distribution/stock issue

That makes a lot of sense, and thats one of the things that concerns me about the KS, and the only reason I haven't yet backed it.

It seemed odd they didn't have the EU shipping figured into the campaign at all, too.

So we'll see how it goes. But yeah, the clarification does make a lot of sense.

Well, to me it seems like the age-old argument of artists vs business. Or idealists vs pragmatists. SPM seems very much like they're pretty high on the artist/idealist side of the spectrum. The problem is that they still need a pragmatist to make sure that whatever works they create actually can be done within budget or is feasible or to take charge of the non-arty parts of business.

Just look at double fine productions. Super artistic creator, ended up spending the 4 million budget and getting only 1/2 the game produced.

Sining wrote:
I'm just not sure they have the logistical or distribution know-how to be able to make sure their products reach a wider audience. At least with SDE, people could see it in normal gameshops. I have never seen tentacle bento, which is their only self-published game I think, in any game shop. Producing is one challenge, being able to distribute and make sure people keep stock of your products is another and frankly, SPM seems to have issues PRODUCING stuff as it is. I'm not sure they can handle the whole distribution/stock issue

I can't really argue with that(I haven't seen Tentacle Bento anywhere other than conventions and their online store either). This is going to be a big step that will either make or break them I suppose. I'm going to err on the optimistic side myself. I know my group is still excited for Relic Knights. I do hope they find a good way to distribute their product to FLGSs- selling it online and at conventions is fine, but instore product adds legitimacy.

The important thing is that they get their stuff to e-figs or ACD or one of those distributors, especially since CMoN was previous their distributor.

I think Tentacle Bento's content is probably what keeps it out of a lot of shops/stores.

I'm not worried about worried about them distributing products. SDE seems to be fairly popular, and if, for some reason, Soda Pop doesn't keep with their existing distributor contacts I'm sure plenty of gamers will be pestering retailers wanting to pick up the latest release.

It does seem nice that both parties seem cordial. I still think it was crappy to release Arcadia Quest so immediately after - but business is business I suppose. And I'll certainly keep supporting CMON vis-a-vis Rivet Wars.

I hope both companies can keep it professional and possibly offer some olive branches in the form of crossover items some day down the road.

 cincydooley wrote:

Sining wrote:
I think Sodapop shot themselves in the foot by buying out their publishing agreement.

How so?

*AQ would not have existed
*they would have had capital for a Q1 2014 TFK release
*they could have released rules digitally and had people playing the co-op today
*no need to reprint and re-box inventory
*they could have focused on finishing RK opposed to being broke and having to sell exclusives for cash.

Feels like whatever reason soda pop wanted to buy out, they were not expecting CMoN to release a competing product and beat them to market with it. With 18 months of no new rules or releases, is SDE even going to survive as a game and not just a source of minis? SDE is currently seeming to be hard to gain a foothold in lots of gaming circles and is not the strongest ruleset as it stands right now. Like40k, it is "fun" because we like the minis and it gives us an excuse to play with them, not because it is a strong game system.

We will see. I want chibi figures, but they better deliver on time or SDE may be a dead game come 2015.

nkelsch wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

Sining wrote:
I think Sodapop shot themselves in the foot by buying out their publishing agreement.

How so?

*AQ would not have existed
*they would have had capital for a Q1 2014 TFK release
*they could have released rules digitally and had people playing the co-op today
*no need to reprint and re-box inventory
*they could have focused on finishing RK opposed to being broke and having to sell exclusives for cash.

Feels like whatever reason soda pop wanted to buy out, they were not expecting CMoN to release a competing product and beat them to market with it. With 18 months of no new rules or releases, is SDE even going to survive as a game and not just a source of minis? SDE is currently seeming to be hard to gain a foothold in lots of gaming circles and is not the strongest ruleset as it stands right now. Like40k, it is "fun" because we like the minis and it gives us an excuse to play with them, not because it is a strong game system.

We will see. I want chibi figures, but they better deliver on time or SDE may be a dead game come 2015.

I'm not sure many of those reasons are important, honestly.
- If Arcadia Quest was developed solely in response to the upcoming split, they certainly knocked out all of those sculpts and prototypes and rules quickly. I'm also not really sure how much it will end up competing with SDE (the look and gameplay of both games is actually quite different).
- I think the Forgotten King that was going to be released in Q1 was quite substantially different to what we're eventually going to get here.
- I don't see why they'd release digital co-op rules if they could sell them to you as part of a boxed game.
- I could be talking rubbish, but I don't think they'd need to re-package existing inventory, as all that was produced under the previous relationship - just any new product being manufactured.
- What exclusives have they been selling recently? Haven't they shifted to a policy of non-exclusivity, even including the Candy in Kingdom Death? And despite the many, many problems with that project, they haven't been involved in 'finishing' RK for some time now - that money has been spent, and they've been waiting around on factory stuff for an age now.

Not that I'm a fan of the company's decisions or level of communication, I'm just not sure that the above are strong reasons as to why buying out their IP was a mistake. They've funded two product lines (at almost no financial risk) that they now wholly own. Assuming something horrific doesn't happen to RK, that will launch in summer of this year and provide a strong revenue source, with Forgotten King accounting for this winter and early next year.

For what it's worth, I can recall Eric Lang (one of the designers of Arcadia Quest) discussing working on it prior to the campaign for Kaosball (which was last spring).

He had been mentioning it under a working codename of Project Phoenix. I had assumed that was an update for Confrontation, but at the start of the AQ campaign one of the other designers mentioned that AQ had been codenamed Project Phoenix.

Most boardgames tend to be in playtesting for a significant amount of time. AQ had to have started prior to the decision to split. Might it have been a point of contention? Sure.

Also outside of visuals, the two games play nothing alike.

I'd like to think if the two companies were still working together we would have seen crossover cards for both games. Maybe we still could going forward some day.

PsychoticStorm wrote:I don't know, but its interesting to read the announcement.

It is unusually clean for our hobby environment.

It's a joint press release. All it means is that the relationship isn't so poisonous as to prevent the parties from being able to make a highly censored statement.

I think the reflection of the relationship is really highlighted by the comparisons to the SPM/Palladium relationship with Robotech.

Palladium hasn't really been shy about tossing blame, etc. That's something you never saw SPM or CMoN do in regards to each other, and it really speaks both to the relationship and the level of professionalism of both companies.

Hell, we've seen how nasty it can get (Torn Armor, anyone?) and it's never even reached that point with this. I think it's probably more akin to someone having their boss as a friend, and realizing that having your friend be your boss really puts a strain on the friendly relationship.

I've talked to both parties, and I really do think they both wish success upon one another; I think CMoN is a bit more rigid in their structure than what SPM wants to operate under, and that's fine. I know on the interwebz we all want to make everything a battle royale, but I'm just not convinced that's even remotely the case here.

Agreed about AQ and SDE not really being anything alike; I backed AQ and will most probably be backing Forgotten King, and I think there's plenty of room for both in your collection.

 cincydooley wrote:

Agreed about AQ and SDE not really being anything alike; I backed AQ and will most probably be backing Forgotten King, and I think there's plenty of room for both in your collection.

While gameplay is different, they do share a customer base in regards to the models. And if anything, Co-OP rules is a response to games like MYTH doing well and people not wanting a DM.

The thing is Arcadia Quest rules could work fine without a chibi component. If it was realistic sculpts and scharacters it would be like a World of Warcraft raid boardgame (which is what it feels like). I am curious if AQ was in development as a ruelset and then at a later point it got re-skinned as a Chibi game. If the CMoN relationship was intact, I suspect AQ would have been released under a different visual look with the same rule mechanic. Add gritty look, moar skulls and giant WOWesque shoulderpads and you got a game.

Who knows? Maybe an alternative chibi game was in the works pre-split, It just sounded like Sodapop was blindsided by it. I think 2 years between releases, SDE risks becoming irrelevant and usurped by better games. :(

nkelsch wrote:

Who knows? Maybe an alternative chibi game was in the works pre-split, It just sounded like Sodapop was blindsided by it. I think 2 years between releases, SDE risks becoming irrelevant and usurped by better games. :(

It's going to be continued support that's going to make a big difference in the long run.

CMoN's other partners (Guillotine and Super Robot Punch) are really active in their support of their respective games (Z-cide, Rivet) and both have free online map editors. I'd be very surprised if we didn't see something similar for Arcadia Quest. I think that ends up being a big deal in the long run, and hopefully SDE can become better in that regard.

Concerning the Chibi market, one shouldn't forget Mice&Mystic and esp. Krosmaster Arena. I think both have a better distribution and a better pricing.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Concerning the Chibi market, one shouldn't forget Mice&Mystic and esp. Krosmaster Arena. I think both have a better distribution and a better pricing.

I guess I didn't realize M&M was chibi.

Krosmaster Arena I love, but again, I think it's different enough from these two that there's plenty of room for all.

Now, when Krosmaster Quest, or whatever it's going to be called, releases, we may have a different story.....

 cincydooley wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Concerning the Chibi market, one shouldn't forget Mice&Mystic and esp. Krosmaster Arena. I think both have a better distribution and a better pricing.

I guess I didn't realize M&M was chibi.

It is more Anthropomorphic... which due to the nature of putting an animal head on a humanoid body, they become somewhat chibi. I think some of the Mice and Mystics work well as crossovers, the same way the reaper Mouselings do.

Krosmaster Quest is released end of April in French, soon after that in other languages. There will be organized tournaments for Krosmaster Arena starting April or May. Quite a different marketing approach than Soda Pops "Don't call us we call you when it will be available again" approach

And yes, M&M is not chibi in the narrow sense, but fills the cute dungeon crawl niche as well and is very popular.