Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been thinking about running a large squad of rat ogres in my Skaven army, and I have a couple of rules questions:

1) How many models do I need in each rank to count as a rank? In a rat ogre thread in the tactics forums, somebody said "[...]never more than 3 wide. 6 wide like most horde formations is just stupid large[...]." However, looking at my rule book under monstrous ranks, it says "Where most troop types need five models for the rank to count towards rank bonus, steadfast and so on, a unit composed purely of monstrous infantry needs only three models." Since a rat ogre squad isn't purely monstrous infantry -- there are packmasters in the group, too -- I would assume that the rat ogres have to be 5 wide. Is there something that I missed, in the faqs, maybe?

1 - Follow up) If you are required to have 5 rat ogres per rank, as I read it, then how would you handle the ranks of packmasters? For example, let's say I have a squad of 10 rat ogres and 5 packmasters. I have 2 ranks of the ogres 5 across. I now have 5 packmasters to deal with. Would the 5 packmasters form a full rank, or would I need 10 packmasters to make a full rank, since that 5 rat ogres take up same space as a 10 man rank?

2) I would like to attach a BSB to a large group of rat ogres. Verminous Valour allows the leadership and battle standard of the character to still be used while in the back. So, I'd like to attack the BSB in the back lines of the squad, but the rules for IC attachment says that the IC has to be attached to the front. Also, if for some reason the character isn't on front ranks, then it automatically returns to the front rank once the combat is over. Is there anyway around this? I wouldn't want my BSB to displace one of my rat ogres.

1. The FAQ has a bit on this, but it's a bit hinky because it seems to apply in a very limited fashion:

Q: The Packmasters' special rule Running with the Pack and the special rule Beast Pack seem to contradict each other. How do they work?

A: The Packmaster and Master Moulder models are ignored when working out the unit's rank bonus, so only ranks of Rat Ogres count. Use the Packmasters' or Master Moulders' Ld value (or the General's) as the base Ld for the unit, to which you then add the Rat Ogres' rank bonus.

That, to me, sounds like you completely ignore the presence of pack masters and master moulders when determining ranks for rank bonuses. As Rat Ogres are Mounstrous Infantry, they would only need to be 3 wide to form a rank.

2. A BSB is a character, and thus MUST be in the first rank EXCEPT where command would push him to back ranks. Now, as Rat Ogres don't have musicians or standard bearers that gets a bit tricky. Master Bred Rat Ogres and Master Moulders are both considered unit Champions (and thus command) and therefore have to be in the front rank. Theoretically, if you made your frontage small enough you could force the BSB into the second rank behind a Master Moulder. (The BSB covers models in a unit with different sized bases.)

Either way, I'm not sure the BSB in your Rat Ogre unit is a very good idea. Firstly you'd need at least 5 packmasters for him to get a Look out Sir! roll, and even then he'd be less protected than if he were in clan rats or something. In a unit of Infantry he'd be unable to be hit by normal BS shooting like bows. Thanks to the mixed unit rule, he could get unluckily plinked by a short bow or something.