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2014/03/22 22:33:36
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
This was an interesting discussion. For myself, I believe in God and thought it interesting that Dawkins was willing to entertain the idea of aliens creating man, but has a hard time with believing in God.
Aliens are just another planet's equivalent of humans. Given the pace at which technology advances, unless we all kill each other first chances are we will go to another star and put life there if there is none.
Whereas the idea of God is not relateable to or grounded in any sort of reality.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
2014/03/23 00:07:46
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Richard Dawkins is a bitter old curmudgeon and a blowhard while Ben Stein is intellectually dishonest charlatan that peddles re-branded creationism called "intelligent design."
Nothing new.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/03/23 02:14:06
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: Richard Dawkins is a bitter old curmudgeon and a blowhard while Ben Stein is intellectually dishonest charlatan that peddles re-branded creationism called "intelligent design."
Nothing new.
Didn't Ben Stein distance himself from the intelligent design movement a few years back? I'd heard that somewhere a while ago.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
2014/03/23 03:18:59
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
feeder wrote: Aliens are just another planet's equivalent of humans. Given the pace at which technology advances, unless we all kill each other first chances are we will go to another star and put life there if there is none.
Whereas the idea of God is not relateable to or grounded in any sort of reality.
Alien creators are just God for people who want to pretend they don't believe in one.
Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor
2014/03/23 03:36:14
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
feeder wrote: Aliens are just another planet's equivalent of humans. Given the pace at which technology advances, unless we all kill each other first chances are we will go to another star and put life there if there is none.
Whereas the idea of God is not relateable to or grounded in any sort of reality.
Alien creators are just God for people who want to pretend they don't believe in one.
This is pretty much the nut of it. If the claim is to be made that a more advanced civilization exists and has visited Earth to create (deposit) life here, then without any direct proof how is it any different a belief system than that of the religious?
Regarding the existence of alien civilizations, Carl Sagen made a statement about this sort of thing on his old Cosmos show. One of his propositions (out of several) is, someone has to be the first so isn't it possible that we're that first civilization? Why must some other life have come before ours?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/23 05:20:09
2014/03/23 06:15:26
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Breotan wrote: This is pretty much the nut of it. If the claim is to be made that a more advanced civilization exists and has visited Earth to create (deposit) life here, then without any direct proof how is it any different a belief system than that of the religious?
Because the idea that another advanced civilization visited Earth is not a "belief system" in science. It is purely an hypothesis (a silly one at that) and unless aliens came here and explained it all to us or we dug up a flying saucer that had a detailed history of what they did, we would never prove it. Unlike a creationist claiming they know for a fact that God created the universe in its present form less than 10000 years ago but offer no evidence, a scientist cannot claim that they know aliens recreated the movie Prometheus here years ago without evidence. The same goes with panspermia; it is just an hypothesis.
When people try to use a scientist saying that it is a possibility that something like that happened as a "gotcha," it is intellectually dishonest. As insane as an idea like that sounds, we cannot rule out that it didn't happen but at the same time that doesn't mean it is treated with equal validity as other theories and hypothesis' about abiogenesis
Regarding the existence of alien civilizations, Carl Sagan made a statement about this sort of thing on his old Cosmos show. One of his propositions (out of several) is, someone has to be the first so isn't it possible that we're that first civilization? Why must some other life have come before ours?
The Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old and life arose less than a billion years after the formation of the planet, during the beginning of the Archean Eon (most likely after the Late Heavy Bombardment), following the solidification of the Earth's crust. That means, even though conditions were still extreme, life took hold a pretty much the first opportunity it had, which was 3.7 billion years ago.
Most scientist say that there is probably more advanced life somewhere else in the universe just because of the time involved. The universe is 13.7 billion years old, so there is a gap of 10 billion years since the beginning of the universe to the beginning of life on Earth. It is even more drastic when you factor in the very short amount of time humanity has been around; anatomically modern humans showed up 200000 years ago, behaviorally modern humans only 50000 years ago, and science only 500 years ago. So when you consider all of that, it's easy to see why some other species on some other planet is older and more advanced than us.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/03/23 08:19:05
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Alien creators are just God for people who want to pretend they don't believe in one.
People who don't believe in god are only pretending? I have seen this argument in various guises over the years and I still find it interesting that some people seem to find it so hard to belive that other people have no interest in, nor a desire for, god(s).
Alien creators are far more likely than the existence of a god. Thats not to say that alien creators are anything but science fiction with a tiny, tiny shard of possibility but at least its better than the man in the sky theory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/23 08:19:34
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2014/03/23 09:12:27
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
People who don't believe in god are only pretending? I have seen this argument in various guises over the years and I still find it interesting that some people seem to find it so hard to belive that other people have no interest in, nor a desire for, god(s).
Alien creators are far more likely than the existence of a god. Thats not to say that alien creators are anything but science fiction with a tiny, tiny shard of possibility but at least its better than the man in the sky theory.
He's clearly not saying he dose not believe that people have no interest in god, but that people who say aliens created life are just replacing one hire power for another.
The aliens creation theory is still a man in the sky theory. There is zero evidence for it, and is a "turtles all the way down" theory. As in, if aliens created life on earth, who created the aliens?
If you are talking about the direct starting of life by an advanced civilisation this requires things like FTL travel, which flys in direct contradiction of all current understood limits of physics, so no different to any other religious belief. If it is the alien microbes on a comet theory, this is only a counter to the most literalist Christians.
Both are beliefs with zero evidence. Neither have and proof.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2014/03/23 09:25:40
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Regarding the existence of alien civilizations, Carl Sagan made a statement about this sort of thing on his old Cosmos show. One of his propositions (out of several) is, someone has to be the first so isn't it possible that we're that first civilization? Why must some other life have come before ours?
The Earth is roughly 4.5 billion years old and life arose less than a billion years after the formation of the planet, during the beginning of the Archean Eon (most likely after the Late Heavy Bombardment), following the solidification of the Earth's crust. That means, even though conditions were still extreme, life took hold a pretty much the first opportunity it had, which was 3.7 billion years ago.
Most scientist say that there is probably more advanced life somewhere else in the universe just because of the time involved. The universe is 13.7 billion years old, so there is a gap of 10 billion years since the beginning of the universe to the beginning of life on Earth. It is even more drastic when you factor in the very short amount of time humanity has been around; anatomically modern humans showed up 200000 years ago, behaviorally modern humans only 50000 years ago, and science only 500 years ago. So when you consider all of that, it's easy to see why some other species on some other planet is older and more advanced than us.
More telling is that Sol is a young star in an old galaxy, so even in regional space there are systems which have a several billion year head start over our own.
This doesn't mean we are not the first, or are not alone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/23 09:26:21
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2014/03/23 09:27:59
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Breotan wrote: This is pretty much the nut of it. If the claim is to be made that a more advanced civilization exists and has visited Earth to create (deposit) life here, then without any direct proof how is it any different a belief system than that of the religious?
Because the idea that another advanced civilization visited Earth is not a "belief system" in science. It is purely an hypothesis (a silly one at that) and...
It stops being a hypothesis once you accept it as a fact. At that point It becomes a belief system like any other, even if absent the ceremony and rituals.
Breotan wrote: This is pretty much the nut of it. If the claim is to be made that a more advanced civilization exists and has visited Earth to create (deposit) life here, then without any direct proof how is it any different a belief system than that of the religious?
Because the idea that another advanced civilization visited Earth is not a "belief system" in science. It is purely an hypothesis (a silly one at that) and...
It stops being a hypothesis once you accept it as a fact. At that point It becomes a belief system like any other, even if absent the ceremony and rituals.
Which is why no credible scientist says that it is fact. There is a huge difference between someone like Carl Sagan writing about the possibility of paleocontact and someone like Erich von Däniken writing books claiming that it actually happened.
Those silly douchebags on Ancient Aliens? Not scientists.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/03/23 09:41:32
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2014/03/23 12:36:40
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Nice of you to cut off the rest of the sentence. I'm not saying that aliens created life on earth, not least because it is extremly unlikely, but it is more likely than the usual man in the sky theory as there is more logic to it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/23 12:37:05
RegalPhantom wrote: If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog
2014/03/23 13:34:14
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Still, you have to admit that aliens inseminating life on Earth, even if requiring another regress, is still within the realm of physical events. If evidence were to be found, it would be in the natural world. By definition, the supernatural cannot be quantified and automatically becomes an infinite regress.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
2014/03/23 18:03:38
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
The fact that life occurred once, means it's at least plausible that it's happened again elsewhere. Life may have been seeded here, but there's no reason to think that it just hasn't arisen independently elsewhere. God on the other hand is part of the supernatural, you can't put a probability on something not rooted in scientific evidence, it's like asking the probability of a ghost in your house when there isn't any proof ghosts exist in the first place. You have to have some factual basis on which to build a hypothesis or it's just an ass-pull.
2014/03/23 18:07:47
Subject: Re:Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
An advanced alien race seeding earth is "possible" and is possible to "prove" given "evidence", however a "God" is a non natural "entity" given our limited understandin and as such cannot be "proven", the big difference here is that those of us that entertain the possibility of aliens seeding the earth are not trying to "force" others into this, you take it or leave it.
Religion however attempts to force others into there limited belief systems, be this through threats (hell, violence or being a pariah), coercion or simple good old fashioned suppression, though it may not be a popular statement I hope that all religion eventually dies out or at the very least stops impeding scientific study with things like creationism and forcing schools to teach it over evolution.
2014/03/23 18:28:05
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Formosa wrote: An advanced alien race seeding earth is "possible" and is possible to "prove" given "evidence", however a "God" is a non natural "entity" given our limited understandin and as such cannot be "proven", the big difference here is that those of us that entertain the possibility of aliens seeding the earth are not trying to "force" others into this, you take it or leave it.
Religion however attempts to force others into there limited belief systems, be this through threats (hell, violence or being a pariah), coercion or simple good old fashioned suppression, though it may not be a popular statement I hope that all religion eventually dies out or at the very least stops impeding scientific study with things like creationism and forcing schools to teach it over evolution.
Such a nice tolerant viewpoint...
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums.
2014/03/23 18:43:05
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Crazy_Carnifex wrote: Alien creators are just God for people who want to pretend they don't believe in one.
This is pretty much the nut of it. If the claim is to be made that a more advanced civilization exists and has visited Earth to create (deposit) life here, then without any direct proof how is it any different a belief system than that of the religious?
He never claimed that he believed it. He just offered it as a non-supernatural explanation, which would explain Ben Stein's hypothetical evidence (which doesn't exist). That is very different to religious belief in things like prayer, Noah's flood and young Earth creationism, which are all demonstrably untrue.
2014/03/23 18:43:29
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Formosa wrote: An advanced alien race seeding earth is "possible" and is possible to "prove" given "evidence", however a "God" is a non natural "entity" given our limited understandin and as such cannot be "proven", the big difference here is that those of us that entertain the possibility of aliens seeding the earth are not trying to "force" others into this, you take it or leave it.
Religion however attempts to force others into there limited belief systems, be this through threats (hell, violence or being a pariah), coercion or simple good old fashioned suppression, though it may not be a popular statement I hope that all religion eventually dies out or at the very least stops impeding scientific study with things like creationism and forcing schools to teach it over evolution.
I can honestly say that I hope the same for viewpoints like yours. You criticise religion for not being tolerant, yet you display a lot of intolerance towards religion yourself. Isn't there some proverb about pots and kettles that would come in handy here?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/23 18:43:58
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2014/03/23 19:47:20
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Howard A Treesong wrote: The fact that life occurred once, means it's at least plausible that it's happened again elsewhere. Life may have been seeded here, but there's no reason to think that it just hasn't arisen independently elsewhere. God on the other hand is part of the supernatural, you can't put a probability on something not rooted in scientific evidence, it's like asking the probability of a ghost in your house when there isn't any proof ghosts exist in the first place. You have to have some factual basis on which to build a hypothesis or it's just an ass-pull.
The biggest difference between God(s) and Alien(s) at this point is that God(s) is/are (a) historical figure(s) obscured by several thousand years of myth, while the "Ancient Aliens" are a newer idea based off of our better understanding of science- fulfilling an intelligent creator role. Aliens are no more logical than God(s) when one considers simply that every datum that could support God(s) scientifically would be obscured or lost in the past few thousand years at least, assuming that they could have been understood in the first place.
Basically, there is no evidence for either position. All we can really do is discuss the probability of the creators occurring. Here Aliens certainly do have an advantage, however, I shall argue that this is simply because they are an ad hoc creation for a secular intelligent creator hypothesis. So if God(s) is/are and ass-pull, Aliens are a memory-foam cushion on the seat of the chair of secular hypothesis.
Q: What do you call a Dinosaur Handpuppet?
A: A Maniraptor
2014/03/23 20:03:57
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Formosa wrote: An advanced alien race seeding earth is "possible" and is possible to "prove" given "evidence", however a "God" is a non natural "entity" given our limited understandin and as such cannot be "proven", the big difference here is that those of us that entertain the possibility of aliens seeding the earth are not trying to "force" others into this, you take it or leave it.
Religion however attempts to force others into there limited belief systems, be this through threats (hell, violence or being a pariah), coercion or simple good old fashioned suppression, though it may not be a popular statement I hope that all religion eventually dies out or at the very least stops impeding scientific study with things like creationism and forcing schools to teach it over evolution.
I can honestly say that I hope the same for viewpoints like yours.
You criticise religion for not being tolerant, yet you display a lot of intolerance towards religion yourself. Isn't there some proverb about pots and kettles that would come in handy here?
My apologies but I do indeed find any institutions that commit or condone acts such as these intolerable, however I'm not going around trying to force my view on others, an important distinction I feel.
In the freedom of peoples homes or institutions they are able and should be allowed to practice any religion they wish, that's a basic human right and a applaud and support it, if they start to affect others negatively then I have a very dim view of it.
I am an optimist at the crux of it and I wish for a future without conflict, famine etc. Sadly I see religion as a detriment to this happening.
As I said it's not a popular view, but your all free to do as you please
2014/03/23 20:42:24
Subject: Re:Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Iron_Captain wrote: I can honestly say that I hope the same for viewpoints like yours.
You criticise religion for not being tolerant, yet you display a lot of intolerance towards religion yourself. Isn't there some proverb about pots and kettles that would come in handy here?
Disrespecting religion- an idea- harms no one. Enforcing religion however often harms individuals.
Howard A Treesong wrote: The fact that life occurred once, means it's at least plausible that it's happened again elsewhere. Life may have been seeded here, but there's no reason to think that it just hasn't arisen independently elsewhere. God on the other hand is part of the supernatural, you can't put a probability on something not rooted in scientific evidence, it's like asking the probability of a ghost in your house when there isn't any proof ghosts exist in the first place. You have to have some factual basis on which to build a hypothesis or it's just an ass-pull.
The biggest difference between God(s) and Alien(s) at this point is that God(s) is/are (a) historical figure(s) obscured by several thousand years of myth, while the "Ancient Aliens" are a newer idea based off of our better understanding of science- fulfilling an intelligent creator role. Aliens are no more logical than God(s) when one considers simply that every datum that could support God(s) scientifically would be obscured or lost in the past few thousand years at least, assuming that they could have been understood in the first place.
Basically, there is no evidence for either position. All we can really do is discuss the probability of the creators occurring. Here Aliens certainly do have an advantage, however, I shall argue that this is simply because they are an ad hoc creation for a secular intelligent creator hypothesis. So if God(s) is/are and ass-pull, Aliens are a memory-foam cushion on the seat of the chair of secular hypothesis.
True. From God to Angels to Aliens, once you look at the defining generalities, they all serve the same purpose, are expressed roughly the same way. They all serve a purpose to the human psyche, only filtered through a societal lens. There were no allusions to aliens before because it was not part of our collective consciousness.
-Shrike- wrote:
Formosa wrote: An advanced alien race seeding earth is "possible" and is possible to "prove" given "evidence", however a "God" is a non natural "entity" given our limited understandin and as such cannot be "proven", the big difference here is that those of us that entertain the possibility of aliens seeding the earth are not trying to "force" others into this, you take it or leave it.
Religion however attempts to force others into there limited belief systems, be this through threats (hell, violence or being a pariah), coercion or simple good old fashioned suppression, though it may not be a popular statement I hope that all religion eventually dies out or at the very least stops impeding scientific study with things like creationism and forcing schools to teach it over evolution.
Such a nice tolerant viewpoint...
Be that as it may, at least he's not proposing laws to get rid of the offending behaviour. Religious institutions have tried or done so countless times.
Iron_Captain wrote:
Formosa wrote: An advanced alien race seeding earth is "possible" and is possible to "prove" given "evidence", however a "God" is a non natural "entity" given our limited understandin and as such cannot be "proven", the big difference here is that those of us that entertain the possibility of aliens seeding the earth are not trying to "force" others into this, you take it or leave it.
Religion however attempts to force others into there limited belief systems, be this through threats (hell, violence or being a pariah), coercion or simple good old fashioned suppression, though it may not be a popular statement I hope that all religion eventually dies out or at the very least stops impeding scientific study with things like creationism and forcing schools to teach it over evolution.
I can honestly say that I hope the same for viewpoints like yours.
You criticise religion for not being tolerant, yet you display a lot of intolerance towards religion yourself. Isn't there some proverb about pots and kettles that would come in handy here?
No, it hardly applies. He is simply stating his opinion. In no way is he forcing anyone to agree with him. It is a historical fact that a lot of religious institutions have tortured, killed, ostracized and silenced detractors. In fact, by most objective and measurable standard, life is made much, much better by removing religions and dogmatic groups from a position of power and letting secular institutions guide society.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
2014/03/23 23:28:34
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Relapse wrote: For myself, I believe in God and thought it interesting that Dawkins was willing to entertain the idea of aliens creating man, but has a hard time with believing in God.
He certainly is not the only one. For instance, our very dear Howard Phillip Lovecraft himself would likely have shared this viewpoint, if we are to base our judgment from this quote from him :
“All I say is that I think it is damned unlikely that anything like a central cosmic will, a spirit world, or an eternal survival of personality exist. They are the most preposterous and unjustified of all the guesses which can be made about the universe, and I am not enough of a hair-splitter to pretend that I don't regard them as arrant and negligible moonshine. In theory I am an agnostic, but pending the appearance of radical evidence I must be classed, practically and provisionally, as an atheist.”
I share his views. In theory I should be an agnostic too, but seriously, that stuff you believe in ? The all-powerful brat in the sky playing at breaking his own toy ? The whole magic mumbo-jumbo ? A super-hero who gets his power from his hairs ? Women suffering when giving birth as a punishment for the fact their great-great-great… ancestor decided she wanted to be able to tell good from bad, right from wrong by herself rather than deferring such judgment on someone else ?
Nope, not a chance .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr. Burning wrote: Alien abductions and probing are punishment for killing their recce automata - Jesus.
Is that supposed to be a punishment ? I mean, really ?
I guess that is an interesting inversion then. Religious people usually tells you that God will punish the gays and reward the straight men, but obviously those aliens are punishing the straight men, and are… rewarding the gays.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/03/23 23:33:00
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/03/24 01:49:31
Subject: Ben Stein talks with Richard Dawkins about God
Iron_Captain wrote: I can honestly say that I hope the same for viewpoints like yours.
You criticise religion for not being tolerant, yet you display a lot of intolerance towards religion yourself. Isn't there some proverb about pots and kettles that would come in handy here?
Disrespecting religion- an idea- harms no one. Enforcing religion however often harms individuals.
Tibetan monks being actively persecuted by the Chinese beg to differ.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
40IK - PP Conversion Project Files
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