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Yesterday I played a 1k points game using my whitescars list which runs 30 bikes with Khan. We play on a 6x4 foot table and most games we deploy lengthways.

I won the role to go first, so deployed my bikes at the edge of the deployment zone. Before the game started I scout moved them 12 forward. Then once the game began I moved them a further 12 inches forward.
From this point on the game was played effectively on a 6x2 table. With such a fast army, first turn and scout I was effectively able to start the game right next to the opposition, and pen him in before he was able to do anything.

Whilst this was great from a tactical standpoint, and the game was very one sided because of it, it did feel very cheap.

Warhammer is traditionally a game where two armies line up against one another before the battle begins. With scouting bikes you break this, and in effect deploy practically next to the opposition.

My question is, how do players currently feel about this strategy? Is this a rule that people feel should be changed? Or is it a balanced and integral part of the game?
One of people I play with has said he wished the game tables could be bigger, so maneuvering before the battle could play more of a part. Whilst this is undoubtedly impractical due to increasing the length of an already long game, it is a nice idea at heart.

Well, the Scout rule seems more balanced around people taking a squad or two of bikes, not entire armies of them. That's one of the reasons White Scars are so nasty right now. I feel your frustration on playing on essentially a 6x2 table. When I play against Daemons the game seldom leaves my deployment zone, which they're in by turn 2. I don't really know what I'd do to change it - limiting X% of the army to Scout moves sounds pretty arbitrary, and the existing rules forbidding the first turn player to assault with Scouting units helps mitigate it. Expanding the table size would be a nice idea except most tables are 6x4 already, and in addition to taking up a ton of space, that would be a lot of new table for people to buy to get up to date.

I generally avoid taking Khan for this exact reason.

Is it more effective? Yes, absolutely. Is it more fun for my opponent? Probably not...

It's a part of the game, what more is there to say? So no, the rule should not be changed. It is a balanced and integral part of the game. You have no reason to feel cheap or whatever you want to call it. Your opponent should build his list to deal with scouts and infiltrators. I'd recommend to him to fit in an Inquisitor with 3 servo-skulls.

It's a part of the game, what more is there to say?

So are superheavies in non apocalypse games, this doesn't mean that there aren't issues with them.

Your opponent should build his list to deal with scouts and infiltrators.

This is quite a specific thing to counter. Being able to tailor a list to beat another doesn't mean that the beaten list in question is balanced.

How many TAC lists do you see with counters to infiltrators/ scouts?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

It's a part of the game, what more is there to say?

So are superheavies in non apocalypse games, this doesn't mean that there aren't issues with them.

Escalation.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Your opponent should build his list to deal with scouts and infiltrators.

This is quite a specific thing to counter. Being able to tailor a list to beat another doesn't mean that the beaten list in question is balanced.

How many TAC lists do you see with counters to infiltrators/ scouts?

You mean a minimum 34 point auto-include choice? Every list.

Escalation.

Imperial knights.

You mean a minimum 34 point auto-include choice? Every list.

Except those which can't ally the inquisition. Doesn't seem all that balanced does it.

You could try using Vanguard Strike or the lengthways deployment instead of crossways, if you feel it's too unbalanced.

Yeah, big scout moves aren't that uncommon. DA, SM, CD, can pull off massive scout pushes. While IG, Tau, CSM, Crons, SW, Orks, DE, Eldar, GK, and BA all have mechanics that can put large numbers on top of you on turn 1/2.

Sorry to your friends, but being prepared for a half field game is kinda 40k 101. I'd feel zero guilt on pulling this trick as it's either something they need to plan for or at least have a counter too.

Considering the availability of servo skulls... kinda a non sequitur for a 40k player to whine about. I'm mean, how do they handle infiltrators, deathwing, mawlocs, drop pods, outflanks, and flyer transports? Those all make half fields pretty quickly too.

So how many TAC lists can handle scouts? Should be all of them, otherwise it would be really hard to call them a TAC list. Seriously, no one in your group uses any of these basic list types? And no one's thought through the very basic counters too them? I hope you're all fairly new to the game and avoid competitive play, cause you're missing a huge part of the depth in 40k if you're creating two lines and then just slugging it out (man, Tau must rock your local meta).

 Lobukia wrote:
Yeah, big scout moves aren't that uncommon. DA, SM, CD, can pull off massive scout pushes. While IG, Tau, CSM, Crons, SW, Orks, DE, Eldar, GK, and BA all have mechanics that can put large numbers on top of you on turn 1/2.

Sorry to your friends, but being prepared for a half field game is kinda 40k 101. I'd feel zero guilt on pulling this trick as it's either something they need to plan for or at least have a counter too.

Considering the availability of servo skulls... kinda a non sequitur for a 40k player to whine about. I'm mean, how do they handle infiltrators, deathwing, mawlocs, drop pods, outflanks, and flyer transports? Those all make half fields pretty quickly too.

So how many TAC lists can handle scouts? Should be all of them, otherwise it would be really hard to call them a TAC list. Seriously, no one in your group uses any of these basic list types? And no one's thought through the very basic counters too them? I hope you're all fairly new to the game and avoid competitive play, cause you're missing a huge part of the depth in 40k if you're creating two lines and then just slugging it out (man, Tau must rock your local meta).

There is a big difference between being able to handle deepstriking, infiltrating and scouting units and dealing with a whole army scouting at one time.

Sure, some of the armies you mentioned can drop troops on people, but that's not the same as literally filling the oppositions deployment and shutting their movement down turn 1.

deathwing, mawlocs, drop pods, outflanks, and flyer transports?

These things really don't limit the opponent as much as a whole scouting army. Only half a drop pod army comes down turn 1. Think about that for comparison.

So far the consensus seems to be that inquisitors make it balanced. How does that work for armies who cannot ally them?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Yesterday I played a 1k points game using my whitescars list which runs 30 bikes with Khan. We play on a 6x4 foot table and most games we deploy lengthways.

I won the role to go first, so deployed my bikes at the edge of the deployment zone. Before the game started I scout moved them 12 forward. Then once the game began I moved them a further 12 inches forward.
From this point on the game was played effectively on a 6x2 table. With such a fast army, first turn and scout I was effectively able to start the game right next to the opposition, and pen him in before he was able to do anything.

Whilst this was great from a tactical standpoint, and the game was very one sided because of it, it did feel very cheap.

Warhammer is traditionally a game where two armies line up against one another before the battle begins. With scouting bikes you break this, and in effect deploy practically next to the opposition.

My question is, how do players currently feel about this strategy? Is this a rule that people feel should be changed? Or is it a balanced and integral part of the game?
One of people I play with has said he wished the game tables could be bigger, so maneuvering before the battle could play more of a part. Whilst this is undoubtedly impractical due to increasing the length of an already long game, it is a nice idea at heart.

Fairly easy to bottleneck the bike army with terrain followed by tank shocking cheap transports to clog their advance, sure you may have 30 bikes but when you can only trickle a few trough the gaps at a time they arent that threatening.

This happened to me last game I played. Not too much fun. Basically spent 30 minutes getting my models out and set up and then another 30 minutes putting them all away. I think I inflicted a total of about 5 or 6 casualties on a 1250pt army.

This is the major problem I have playing 40k. It seems to be way too much of a rock, paper, scissors game. Typically the game is won or lost before you even out models on the table. I understand that is the nature of things to some extent, but the luck factor of dice rolling should do a little bit more to counteract the rock, paper, scissor nature of the game. At least then you might feel like you have a chance when you brought an army of rocks and your opponent brings an army of paper.

And don't even suggest to me to build an "all commers" list. There is no better way to make sure you get you butt handed to you. Anymore it seems you need to put all of your eggs in one basket and hope your opponent does not show up with the hard counter.

 Barksdale wrote:
It's a part of the game, what more is there to say? So no, the rule should not be changed. It is a balanced and integral part of the game. You have no reason to feel cheap or whatever you want to call it. Your opponent should build his list to deal with scouts and infiltrators. I'd recommend to him to fit in an Inquisitor with 3 servo-skulls.

Or Kroot.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/277109.page

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Yeah, big scout moves aren't that uncommon. DA, SM, CD, can pull off massive scout pushes. While IG, Tau, CSM, Crons, SW, Orks, DE, Eldar, GK, and BA all have mechanics that can put large numbers on top of you on turn 1/2.

Sorry to your friends, but being prepared for a half field game is kinda 40k 101. I'd feel zero guilt on pulling this trick as it's either something they need to plan for or at least have a counter too.

Considering the availability of servo skulls... kinda a non sequitur for a 40k player to whine about. I'm mean, how do they handle infiltrators, deathwing, mawlocs, drop pods, outflanks, and flyer transports? Those all make half fields pretty quickly too.

So how many TAC lists can handle scouts? Should be all of them, otherwise it would be really hard to call them a TAC list. Seriously, no one in your group uses any of these basic list types? And no one's thought through the very basic counters too them? I hope you're all fairly new to the game and avoid competitive play, cause you're missing a huge part of the depth in 40k if you're creating two lines and then just slugging it out (man, Tau must rock your local meta).

There is a big difference between being able to handle deepstriking, infiltrating and scouting units and dealing with a whole army scouting at one time.

Sure, some of the armies you mentioned can drop troops on people, but that's not the same as literally filling the oppositions deployment and shutting their movement down turn 1.

deathwing, mawlocs, drop pods, outflanks, and flyer transports?

These things really don't limit the opponent as much as a whole scouting army. Only half a drop pod army comes down turn 1. Think about that for comparison.

So far the consensus seems to be that inquisitors make it balanced. How does that work for armies who cannot ally them?

You don't need anything special... if an army (player) doesn't have screening elements, can't use reserve to limit targets and can't make use of the battlefield, or blast weapons, or ignoring cover weapons, or dedicated assault units, or seizing the initiative characters, or inquisitors, or its own drop pod/infiltrate/scout/outflank units, or ap 3 weapons, or flyers, or whatever... then stupid them. Seriously, an all bike army has some significant issues (model count, dependence on cover, weak close combat ability, Init 4, 3+ saves, etc). I like bikes (have a vicious bike/centurion list myself), but to think they imbalance the game or that taking an all bike list is an easy button just isn't so. What lists/armies do you think are lacking in reasonable counters to a bike list?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Every list I run (see sig) would salivate at an enemy's entire force being right at the edge of my deployment zone (especially a 3+ save, low model count one). Not to mention nids and DE (which I don't play).

how does assault help against a WS army when they all have hit and run ?
I play IG and if my opponent starts then there is nothing I can do to counter him until my turn comes. By then any cover ignoring units that were not in reservs will be dead . There are no IG units that can infiltrate and are good and no which have scout . I do use flyers , three actualy , but they don't seem to help much against bikers . I could take coteaz , if the codex was not digital .

I would love a White Scars player to scout right up next to me.

It means all my guns are in range. It means my gants get to assault turn 1. It means my Carnifexes might get into assault turn 1 - can't Hit and Run if there's no unit left. Vector Strikes are easier.

Man, that'd be awesome. Too bad all the WS players I've played are smart and don't do that.

Makumba wrote:
how does assault help against a WS army when they all have hit and run ?
I play IG and if my opponent starts then there is nothing I can do to counter him until my turn comes. By then any cover ignoring units that were not in reservs will be dead . There are no IG units that can infiltrate and are good and no which have scout . I do use flyers , three actualy , but they don't seem to help much against bikers . I could take coteaz , if the codex was not digital .

A reserved leaf blower type list with conscripts would work great (tau allies might help too).

Makumba - thats where collossus are golden. WOunding on 3s, but you can bubble wrap out such that they cant move into melta range so effectively, and so have to rely on grav to take it out.

ONe set up in the corner makes for nervous bikers. Good old aegis also helps, as one deployed well means they cant get behind it, and if they bunch mobile plasma vets, which hurt marine armies, will gank them.

WS armies that just rush forward are dead meat.