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Hi all,

so i'm starting a skaven army and been stocking up on clanrats to use as slaves. But atm i got about 40 clanrats with spears modelled, but everyone tells me that i need to use slaves.
So are those clanrats with spears basicly useless?

I don't see why slaves are such a requirement. Can i still use clanrats? It's confusing as hell.

Basically slaves are super cheap and half the price of clan rats, without much of a trade off in terms of survivability and damage output.

I use both, usually 2 blocks of slaves to 1 of clanrats (because weapon teams are great, and you need a bunker to put your heroes in, and slaves are awful awful bunkers).


Don't worry that you've done them up as clanrats with spears. Fantasy isn't as crazy about WYSIWYG as 40K, the easiest thing to do is just intermix your spear guys with HW guys and make sure the front rank is all HWs.

Slaves are cheaper than clanrats, but most importantly you can shoot into combat with them with your warmachines. So your 50+ units of slaves just lock enemies down while you wail away on them with warp lightning cannons. It's pretty much the most obnoxious combo in the game, and why everyone is desperately anticipating a new skaven book.

If Skaven weren't such an expensive and time consuming army to build and play you'd probably see a lot more of them out there. There only reason they don't win tournaments is because, like Orcs and Goblins, you're likely to get that ONE game where your toys just don't work and you lose as a result.

Skavenslaves are great.
But they also automatically die when they break from combat.

So, while I never leave home without a few blocks of Slaves, I've also never fielded an army that didn't have at least one unit of Clanrats, to protect a character or two.

@PirateRobotNinjaofDeath: It is not even remotely the most obnoxious combo in the game.
Warshrine + Chosen?
White Lions + Banner of the World Dragon?
Steam Tank + ...Steam Tank?

Those are some serious combos.
Skaven are pretty solid, but the book is gettin' old, and most of the army isn't worth taking anymore.

Most importantly, though, keep in mind that the previous Skaven book allowed us to shoot into any and all combats, not just those involving only Slaves. So I doubt the rule is going to be up and gone next book.
I would like to see a return to randomization, though, if we could find a way around Warpfire Thrower shenanigans.

Most obnoxious combo... Be serious.

I despise anyone who tells me that I "need" to use anything as if there's a mathhammer formula that proves you fail at life if you don't use it. I think you can get away with not using Slaves if you don't want to.

How many chaos players run Chosen+Warshrine? I've never seen it on the table once in a competitive Warriors list. Heck...I don't even think I've SEEN a chosen block on the table since the 8th ed codex hit.

Steam tanks aren't really a combo, they're just really good and really hard to deal with.

White Lions + BotWD....okay you have me on that one. Maybe on the unkillable demon prince as well.

"MOST obnoxious" might be hyperbole, but it's not far from the truth. Being able to lock a unit down for several turns with a 100-point, 50 man unit that's steadfast on LD10 rerollable is absolutely obnoxious. Combined with how much access they have to cheap chaff, hitty monsters and warmachines, unbreakable units, doom rockets and brass orbs...gak's ridiculous. I play against a lot of good players at my club, but there are few games where I feel quite as helpless as I do against a *good* Skaven player with all of his toys. The fact that you can't even hide in combat from their undercosted warmachines is just...ugh.

 Wilytank wrote:
I despise anyone who tells me that I "need" to use anything as if there's a mathhammer formula that proves you fail at life if you don't use it. I think you can get away with not using Slaves if you don't want to.

It's not that i don't want to, i love the concept of the slaves. I was just worried i wasted money on clanrats that have spears eqcuipped. but yeah i forgot i could just mix stuff up modelwise and that WYSIWYG isn't that important

 Syndrom wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I despise anyone who tells me that I "need" to use anything as if there's a mathhammer formula that proves you fail at life if you don't use it. I think you can get away with not using Slaves if you don't want to.

It's not that i don't want to, i love the concept of the slaves. I was just worried i wasted money on clanrats that have spears eqcuipped. but yeah i forgot i could just mix stuff up modelwise and that WYSIWYG isn't that important

Its not wasted man, slaves have their place and clanrats do as well. I use two blocks of 50 slaves in my list to tarpit, and i use two blocks of 40 clanrats as psuedo bunkers for my characters. Lets face it, 20 clanrats as a bunker isnt exactly going to protect anyone from much. They die in droves.

The slaves are nice because within leadership and BSB bubble they literally hang around forever, and you can shoot into the enemeny locked in combat with slaves. This has been HUGE for me.

They both have a spot. Frankly, with how cheap slaves are its really hard not to take 100+ of them.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Being able to lock a unit down for several turns with a 100-point, 50 man unit that's steadfast on LD10 rerollable is absolutely obnoxious.

In my experience, "several turns" is stretching it. Witch Elves, Hammerers, White Lions, Chaos Warriors...they all chew through Slaves pretty fast. Usually, it seems to go: he charges my slaves and butchers a dozen of them. I kill a model. My turn, he scythes through another dozen or so. His 2nd turn, I've lost 30+ models, lose Steadfast, and break.
And if I held them longer, its because it was a small unit anyway.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Combined with how much access they have to cheap chaff, hitty monsters and warmachines, unbreakable units, doom rockets and brass orbs...gak's ridiculous.

Um. One cheap chaff unit, the Rat Dart. One scary monster and one monster/warmachine hybrid that's scary to small units and single models. Unbreakable units? Rat Swarms? Haven't seen anyone besides myself use them. Doomrockets and Brass Orbs? One of each per army, one use only, and they miss far (far) more often than they hit.

Not saying they're not good. Just saying its far from the best army out there. The book is old, so some of the rules clash with 8th to the Skaven's advantage. And some clash to their disadvantage.

Warpsolution wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Being able to lock a unit down for several turns with a 100-point, 50 man unit that's steadfast on LD10 rerollable is absolutely obnoxious.

In my experience, "several turns" is stretching it. Witch Elves, Hammerers, White Lions, Chaos Warriors...they all chew through Slaves pretty fast. Usually, it seems to go: he charges my slaves and butchers a dozen of them. I kill a model. My turn, he scythes through another dozen or so. His 2nd turn, I've lost 30+ models, lose Steadfast, and break.
And if I held them longer, its because it was a small unit anyway.

I really think you're underestimating the advantage of being able to do all of that for 100 points. Your opponent can only reform when those slaves break on their second turn, meaning you get a whole second round of shooting at them. Compared to most warmachines, that you really only get 2 or 3 rounds of shooting with before everything's hiding in combat that is a HUGE advantage. Not to mention that your WLCs are hybrid cannon/stonethrowers that are more accurate than the latter and are strong against infantry unlike the former.

Warpsolution wrote:

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Combined with how much access they have to cheap chaff, hitty monsters and warmachines, unbreakable units, doom rockets and brass orbs...gak's ridiculous.

Um. One cheap chaff unit, the Rat Dart. One scary monster and one monster/warmachine hybrid that's scary to small units and single models. Unbreakable units? Rat Swarms? Haven't seen anyone besides myself use them. Doomrockets and Brass Orbs? One of each per army, one use only, and they miss far (far) more often than they hit.

Not saying they're not good. Just saying its far from the best army out there. The book is old, so some of the rules clash with 8th to the Skaven's advantage. And some clash to their disadvantage.

Rat darts are more than enough as chaff. Doom Rockets can deal an absolutely obscene amount of damage for how incredibly cheap they are. Brass orbs are as accurate as a Pit of Shades but can't be dispelled, and if you're standing right next to the enemy will basically hit even on a misfire. I see screaming bells and plague furnaces all the time around here.

Oh yeah, and the 13th spell is also ridiculous. As are the ambushing guys, since there's practically nothing you can do to prevent them coming onto your back lines and taking out a warmachine.

Yeah the book is old, some of the rules do clash with 8th, and there's a few dud choices in there. But a GOOD skaven army in front of a GOOD skaven army is nigh unstoppable unless his toys don't work.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
I really think you're underestimating the advantage of being able to do all of that for 100 points. Your opponent can only reform when those slaves break on their second turn, meaning you get a whole second round of shooting at them. Compared to most warmachines, that you really only get 2 or 3 rounds of shooting with before everything's hiding in combat that is a HUGE advantage.

100 points for another volley from my two Cannons is pretty good. I suppose I might have a Warpfire Thrower or some other such device, if I ever took Weapon Teams anymore. Oh, and let's not forget that your opponent can always try to avoid those blocks of Slaves.
I'm not saying its not good. But I'm also not saying that it's completely broken.
I do hope that they make Skavenslaves worse at fighting next book. I think it's rather silly that I can deploy them 10-wide, and seriously mess-up other units, thanks to Bless With Filth and/or Death Frenzy. But Skaven should have Slaves, and they should be a good tar pit.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Not to mention that your WLCs are hybrid cannon/stonethrowers that are more accurate than the latter and are strong against infantry unlike the former.

And is far less reliable than either. They should cost more, to be sure, but, on top of the odds of missing like a regular cannon or grudge thrower, you can always roll a 2 or a Misfire on that second die. And a 4 or a 6 isn't going to scare monsters overmuch (I know it'll still shred infantry, but that doesn't help, if you were aiming at a dragon. Unreliable). And let's not ignore the Misfire chart.

PirateRobotNinjaofDeath wrote:
Rat darts are more than enough as chaff. Doom Rockets can deal an absolutely obscene amount of damage for how incredibly cheap they are. Brass orbs are as accurate as a Pit of Shades but can't be dispelled, and if you're standing right next to the enemy will basically hit even on a misfire. I see screaming bells and plague furnaces all the time around here.

Oh yeah, and the 13th spell is also ridiculous. As are the ambushing guys, since there's practically nothing you can do to prevent them coming onto your back lines and taking out a warmachine.

Yeah the book is old, some of the rules do clash with 8th, and there's a few dud choices in there. But a GOOD skaven army in front of a GOOD skaven army is nigh unstoppable unless his toys don't work.

...are you saying that, in a mirror-match, Skaven can't beat Skaven?
And yes, Rat Darts are probably the 2nd best chaff in the game (gonna' have to vote for those damnable Dark riders. And Sabretusks as a close 3rd). The Doomrocket is also too cheap. I'd say 50pts, move or fire. But it's still one use only. The Orb...eh. The targets it can threaten are pretty specific, and it's not accurate, and it's got a tiny range. Granted, it makes Anvils and Steam Tanks really sad. But Elves and Chaos Warriors and a bunch of other armies don't mind so much. It's good, but not an auto-include, by any means.

The Curse affects infantry only. I mean, 14 models dead is pretty devastating. It's more general than Dwellers or even Final Transmutation, but its also way more specific. Big units aren't all that scared, and a big chunk of the units in the game don't care about it at all. I actually hope it becomes more like Final Transmutation later. I mean, same principle, right? And that way, it won't wreck units of 15 guys, but it'll still be viable against hordes of 50.

And Gutter Runners using Sneaky Infiltrators are, on average, turning up on Turn 3. By that point, your war machines have, as you've said, become useless, since everything's in combat. It's always better to deploy them as scouts, if possible. But your opponent can almost always make such deployment unfavorable.

Again. Not saying it's a terrible army. But they're not Da' Best anymore.

Taking the brass orb costs...what...65 points? Doom rocket less than that? Yeah the range on both is relatively short...but you can just skitterleap for that. What you're debating about as an auto-include is what others are paying for a unit of redirectors. If the Doom Rocket works then it kills 10x its points in stuff. If it doesn't you're risking next to nothing. If the brass orb works then it can kill 200 points worth of stuff. If it doesn't then, again, you're risking practically nothing.

All told, I still think that the ONLY thing holding Skaven back right now is that their toys can just not work. Everything in the army is undercosted, so against pretty much any opponent you're bringing more threats and killing potential than they are. As an opponent your chances of victory depend very much on whether the Skaven player is rolling above or below average with his toys.

It's a very frustrating experience to be up against. Which is why I say that Skaven really desperately need a new book. It's not fun to just get leafblowered off the table because the Skaven player's dice are on fire.

The Doomrocket has an average maximum range of 35". Not exactly short. But the only way you're killing 300pts with it is, like, a direct hit on a unit of Swordmasters deployed 5-deep.

Skaven tech and tricks are unreliable. That's the point, after all. And yeah, I'd better be paying less for it, if it's just as likely to blow up as it is to kill my enemy.

Maybe it's just my luck, but I've never decimated an opponent, no matter how many toys I bring.

Last time I played Skaven he hit my 600-point Tomb Guard block with a doom rocket and killed half of them. Not quite 600 points since I can raise them, but pretty damned close. Large template S5 is easily going to kill more than an engineer with the rocket costs.

I never said it's not going to make its points back. I said it's very rarely going to make 10 times its points back. Hyperbole is a great literary trope when used sparingly, but we're talking tactics here.

In the last tournament I was in, my Doomrocket missed completely in two games and was sorta' on-target in two games. I took out 9 Executioners (awesome), and something like 7 Crossbowmen (less awesome. Still got my points back, but barely. The other options were a Steam Tank and several 5-strong units of Knights).
In the tourney before that, my Doomrocket never once hit anything. And Misfired.

I'm not saying that the above is always going to happen. But hitting a huge block of expensive infantry dead-center isn't exactly likely, either.

Like I said. 50pts, move or fire. Or we just do away with its weird targeting system, and put in something with an Artillery Die, so it Misfires more often. Or both.

Skaven are always going to have cheap toys that are highly destructive (to both sides). I wish that we had a wider variety of options that had a lower Risk-Reward factor. That way, a handful of good or bad rolls can't totally swing the game.

Anyway. Yeah. Clanrats and Slaves both have their place.

My point isn't that the Doomrocket et al are always going to hit, or even that they're more likely to hit than not. It's just that the risk-reward factor on them is totally skewed. Yeah Brass Orbs and Doom Rockets are unreliable, and are vastly less effective against some armies compared to others...but they're both SO cheap that it doesn't matter.

Taking a Brass Orb is 65 points. Kill two ogres with that and you've more than paid your points back, and a direct hit will kill many times more than that.

Taking a doom rocket is 45 points. Thats...what, 4 tomb guard or white lions? And think of how many you can fit under a large template on a hit. 50 points move-or-fire isn't going to cut it. 50 points, move or fire, S3 AP (S8 AP D6 wounds centre) is more like it. Move-or-fire is hardly an impediment in a gunline army.

50pts for a one-use-only Mortar? Gimmie a break. I'll pay the exta 40pts for a genuine war machine.

They are too good. But they're not completely, hopelessly broken.
I mean, I've taken a Brass Orb maybe one in thirty games. It's just too unreliable and conditional.

Granted, I take the Doomrocket in every list ever. So it is clearly too good.

agree with Warpsolution, Doomrocket is very, very solid (ok it's excellent)
The brass orb? It's "meh" at best. You need skitterleap to have any real use of it, and then only against about 30% of the armies will it really be useful, and of course it's very unreliable (30% of armies represent armies at a tournament, not overall)
Of course it will make STanks and warmachines cry, but it's way too situational and random to be worth the investment

Also, Death Frenzy + Bless with Filth is a nasty combo to throw on slaves, and you can easily horde these guys out for a crazy number of poison attacks (again, for half the price of doing this with Clan Rats).

Bless with Filth/Death Frenzy is nice in theory, but my experience with it in games is that you bounce off even decent armor and still lose out in CR. Against something at a 4+ (empire, woc, dwarves w/ shields) I rarely find it worth the magic dice.

Edit: Hording out slaves is risky, imo, as by dropping your ranks you make it easier to lose steadfast and thus your unit.

It's very true. I'd never try that gambit on anything especially tough. If it's got two or more of the following, it's probably not worth it: 4+ up armour/Ward, 2 attacks, T4+, S4+, and something like Hatred.

Still, if I've got my other units in position already, and my Slaves would just add CR to my opponent's side, I'll Horde 'em up and try for it. Killing a handful of Black Guard is already covering their cost anyway.

 More Dakka wrote:
Also, Death Frenzy + Bless with Filth is a nasty combo to throw on slaves, and you can easily horde these guys out for a crazy number of poison attacks (again, for half the price of doing this with Clan Rats).

It's also worth noting frenzied units can't parry so that's one more negative to giving them to the hand weapon and shield clanrats. I usually never deal with that problem but sure enough I was reminded. Usually clanrats are going to lose combat anyway so whatever. I suppose a few less dead means steadfast would be around longer but it doesn't feel like the biggest deal.

I'm not sure how to feel with skaven plague spells. I feel like skaven spells need more potent higher casted versions like all 8th edition magic but whatever. It's mostly the fact with plague spells that almost all of those spells are 12" in range.

Warpsolution wrote:
It's very true. I'd never try that gambit on anything especially tough. If it's got two or more of the following, it's probably not worth it: 4+ up armour/Ward, 2 attacks, T4+, S4+, and something like Hatred.

Still, if I've got my other units in position already, and my Slaves would just add CR to my opponent's side, I'll Horde 'em up and try for it. Killing a handful of Black Guard is already covering their cost anyway.

See Fantasy is where I truly try to avoid that line of thought. If you kill10 black guard, sure your slaves killed more than they cost; but unless you actually wipe out that unit, your slaves haven't actually made a single point back. If broken/half strength units gave half VP or something, I'd be there with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
I'm not sure how to feel with skaven plague spells. I feel like skaven spells need more potent higher casted versions like all 8th edition magic but whatever. It's mostly the fact with plague spells that almost all of those spells are 12" in range.

I find plague spells pretty underwhelming for exactly the reason you mention: short range. I don't want my Grey Seers that close to anything, and even Plague Priests won't last long once in combat. That leaves the Vermin Lord (who I've used to decent success with Plague) but he has his own whole host of issues (high cost, dies easily, etc. etc.). Even Plague is pretty 'meh' at best. T test means a good number of armies are getting 50/50 shot or better to avoid the wound to start, then MR/ward applies (sup BotWD?). Sure it might bounce, but for the cost I'd be better off casting Dreaded 13th (assuming I'm targeting infantry).

 streamdragon wrote:
See Fantasy is where I truly try to avoid that line of thought. If you kill10 black guard, sure your slaves killed more than they cost; but unless you actually wipe out that unit, your slaves haven't actually made a single point back. If broken/half strength units gave half VP or something, I'd be there with you.

Oh, for sure. It's not a hard, by-the-numbers line of reasoning. But as Skaven, I'm not breaking my opponent in one glorious charge anyway, so I'll take those wounds where I can get 'em.

I've heard a lot of people say they want Slaves to go up to 3pts/model. I just don't think that there'd be enough distinction between them and Clanrats, at that point. Now, if they were, say, WS1, S2, or even T2, I'd call that a more reasonable downgrade.
Having tons of Slaves was The Reason I started Skaven. It's a cool image and its a lot of fun to have 100 models on the board that I simply do not care about.