How can 'Imperial guard' be a copyright issue?

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**Poly Ranger**

Throughout history there have been regiments called the 'imperial guard', most notably Napoleons veterans.
It has been a term used for centuries and no modern writer has invented it.
So how can it be a copyright issue?
That is like saying the terms 'legionaries', 'auxiliaries', 'phalanx', 'highland regiment', 'household guard', 'rifles', etc can all be the issue of copyright.
Ridiculous!

**CthuluIsSpy**

It's not a copyright issue per se.

It more has to do with brand recognition. In other words, GW wants a trademark they can enforce.

**Poly Ranger**

Ah! I have badly misinterpreted the threads about the new name then! Thank you.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Yeah. Unlike Space Marine, Imperial Guard does not come under GW's little IP list (probably because even GW's lawyers realize how silly that would be).

I bet that list will include Astra Militarum after it gets released.

**Swastakowey**

In 10 years time when everyone calls it Astra Militarum, people wont look at 3rd party models called imperial guard and click that they are astra militarum stand ins. Doesnt change much now but it will in the future.

**Poly Ranger**

Such a silly name... well - for languages of germanic descent anyway. Could work quite well in southern europe/france.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
In 10 years time when everyone calls it Astra Militarum, people wont look at 3rd party models called imperial guard and click that they are astra militarum stand ins. Doesnt change much now but it will in the future.

Do you reckon it will get shortened to astra or militarum in conversations?

**hobojebus**

Gw can't claim space marines they were mentioned first in the book starship troopers which is where power armour also came from, they could however claim astartes as they did make that themselves.

**CthuluIsSpy**

hobojebus wrote:
Gw can't claim space marines they were mentioned first in the book starship troopers which is where power armour also came from, they could however claim astartes as they did make that themselves.

GW's lawyers disagree

TRADEMARK INFORMATION
Adeptus Astartes, Battlefleet Gothic, Black Flame, Black Library, the Black Library logo, BL Publishing, Blood Angels, Bloodquest, Blood Bowl, the Blood Bowl logo, The Blood Bowl Spike Device, Cadian, Catachan, the Chaos device, Cityfight, the Chaos logo, Citadel, Citadel Device, City of the Damned, Codex, Daemonhunters, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Dark Future, the Double-Headed/Imperial Eagle device, 'Eavy Metal, Eldar, Eldar symbol devices, Epic, Eye of Terror, Fanatic, the Fanatic logo, the Fanatic II logo, Fire Warrior, Forge World, Games Workshop, Games Workshop logo, Genestealer, Golden Demon, Gorkamorka, Great Unclean One, the Hammer of Sigmar logo, Horned Rat logo, Inferno, Inquisitor, the Inquisitor logo, the Inquisitor device, Inquisitor:Conspiracies, Keeper of Secrets, Khemri, Khorne, Kroot, Lord of Change, Marauder, Mordheim, the Mordheim logo, Necromunda, Necromunda stencil logo, Necromunda Plate logo, Necron, Nurgle, Ork, Ork skull devices, Sisters of Battle, Skaven, the Skaven symbol devices, Slaanesh, Space Hulk, Space Marine, Space Marine chapters, Space Marine chapter logos, Talisman, Tau, the Tau caste designations, Tomb Kings, Trio of Warriors, Twin Tailed Comet Logo, Tyranid, Tyrannid, Tzeentch, Ultramarines, Warhammer, Warhammer Historical, Warhammer Online, Warhammer 40k Device, Warhammer World logo, Warmaster, White Dwarf, the White Dwarf logo, and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations illustrations and images from the Blood Bowl game, the Warhammer world, the Talisaman world, and the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2013, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. All Rights Reserved

Also, Space Marine did not originate from starship troopers. That is a common misconception.
The first use of the term Space Marines was in fact in 1932, in Bob Olsen's "Captain Brink of the Space Marines"

**Massaen**

There is a difference between trademarks and copyright

**Furyou Miko**

Poly Ranger wrote:
Such a silly name... well - for languages of germanic descent anyway. Could work quite well in southern europe/france.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Swastakowey wrote:
In 10 years time when everyone calls it Astra Militarum, people wont look at 3rd party models called imperial guard and click that they are astra militarum stand ins. Doesnt change much now but it will in the future.

Do you reckon it will get shortened to astra or militarum in conversations?

They'll be Millies.

Maybe Astras.

**CrashCanuck**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
Gw can't claim space marines they were mentioned first in the book starship troopers which is where power armour also came from, they could however claim astartes as they did make that themselves.

GW's lawyers disagree

TRADEMARK INFORMATION
Adeptus Astartes, Battlefleet Gothic, Black Flame, Black Library, the Black Library logo, BL Publishing, Blood Angels, Bloodquest, Blood Bowl, the Blood Bowl logo, The Blood Bowl Spike Device, Cadian, Catachan, the Chaos device, Cityfight, the Chaos logo, Citadel, Citadel Device, City of the Damned, Codex, Daemonhunters, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Dark Future, the Double-Headed/Imperial Eagle device, 'Eavy Metal, Eldar, Eldar symbol devices, Epic, Eye of Terror, Fanatic, the Fanatic logo, the Fanatic II logo, Fire Warrior, Forge World, Games Workshop, Games Workshop logo, Genestealer, Golden Demon, Gorkamorka, Great Unclean One, the Hammer of Sigmar logo, Horned Rat logo, Inferno, Inquisitor, the Inquisitor logo, the Inquisitor device, Inquisitor:Conspiracies, Keeper of Secrets, Khemri, Khorne, Kroot, Lord of Change, Marauder, Mordheim, the Mordheim logo, Necromunda, Necromunda stencil logo, Necromunda Plate logo, Necron, Nurgle, Ork, Ork skull devices, Sisters of Battle, Skaven, the Skaven symbol devices, Slaanesh, Space Hulk, Space Marine, Space Marine chapters, Space Marine chapter logos, Talisman, Tau, the Tau caste designations, Tomb Kings, Trio of Warriors, Twin Tailed Comet Logo, Tyranid, Tyrannid, Tzeentch, Ultramarines, Warhammer, Warhammer Historical, Warhammer Online, Warhammer 40k Device, Warhammer World logo, Warmaster, White Dwarf, the White Dwarf logo, and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations illustrations and images from the Blood Bowl game, the Warhammer world, the Talisaman world, and the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2013, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. All Rights Reserved

Also, Space Marine did not originate from starship troopers. That is a common misconception.
The first use of the term Space Marines was in fact in 1932, in Bob Olsen's "Captain Brink of the Space Marines"

Disagree or not GW's lawyers weren't able to convince a judge to allow them to copyright it.

As for the name change for the IG I just figure that Astra Militorum will be to IG like Adeptus Astartes is to Space Marine, the in universe fancy high gothic name for the army but the low gothic common term will remain Imperial Guard

**CthuluIsSpy**

Massaen wrote:
There is a difference between trademarks and copyright

That is true. If I understand correctly though, you cannot use a name that's been Trade Marked

Trademark rights may be used to prevent others from using a confusingly similar mark, but not to prevent others from making the same goods or from selling the same goods or services under a clearly different mark. Trademarks which are used in interstate or foreign commerce may be registered with the Patent and Trademark Office. The registration procedure for trademarks and general information concerning trademarks is described in a separate pamphlet entitled "Basic Facts about Trademarks".

http://www.lawmart.com/forms/difference.htm

**PrinceRaven**

I am truly baffled as to how they managed to trademark "space marine" in the first place. Generic and merely descriptive terms cannot be legally trademarked, "space marine" is both.

**CthuluIsSpy**

CrashCanuck wrote:

As for the name change for the IG I just figure that Astra Militorum will be to IG like Adeptus Astartes is to Space Marine, the in universe fancy high gothic name for the army but the low gothic common term will remain Imperial Guard

I believe that is the case according to White Dwarf.

If I recall correctly, it says something like "The Astra Militorum, also known as the Imperial Guard..."

**da001**

Poly Ranger wrote:
Such a silly name... well - for languages of germanic descent anyway. Could work quite well in southern europe/france.

Sounds really silly in Spanish too (imo).

...
Do you reckon it will get shortened to astra or militarum in conversations?

If I am still playing, I will probably still use "Imperial Guard".

PrinceRaven wrote:
I am truly baffled as to how they managed to trademark "space marine" in the first place. Generic and merely descriptive terms cannot be legally trademarked, "space marine" is both.

Me too! And it is a term widely used in fiction...

**CthuluIsSpy**

Poly Ranger wrote:
Such a silly name... well - for languages of germanic descent anyway. Could work quite well in southern europe/france.

Nope, still worse than Garde Impériale.
That was the name of the elite detachment of Napoleon Bonaparte's armies as well.

**hobojebus**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
hobojebus wrote:
Gw can't claim space marines they were mentioned first in the book starship troopers which is where power armour also came from, they could however claim astartes as they did make that themselves.

GW's lawyers disagree

TRADEMARK INFORMATION
Adeptus Astartes, Battlefleet Gothic, Black Flame, Black Library, the Black Library logo, BL Publishing, Blood Angels, Bloodquest, Blood Bowl, the Blood Bowl logo, The Blood Bowl Spike Device, Cadian, Catachan, the Chaos device, Cityfight, the Chaos logo, Citadel, Citadel Device, City of the Damned, Codex, Daemonhunters, Dark Angels, Dark Eldar, Dark Future, the Double-Headed/Imperial Eagle device, 'Eavy Metal, Eldar, Eldar symbol devices, Epic, Eye of Terror, Fanatic, the Fanatic logo, the Fanatic II logo, Fire Warrior, Forge World, Games Workshop, Games Workshop logo, Genestealer, Golden Demon, Gorkamorka, Great Unclean One, the Hammer of Sigmar logo, Horned Rat logo, Inferno, Inquisitor, the Inquisitor logo, the Inquisitor device, Inquisitor:Conspiracies, Keeper of Secrets, Khemri, Khorne, Kroot, Lord of Change, Marauder, Mordheim, the Mordheim logo, Necromunda, Necromunda stencil logo, Necromunda Plate logo, Necron, Nurgle, Ork, Ork skull devices, Sisters of Battle, Skaven, the Skaven symbol devices, Slaanesh, Space Hulk, Space Marine, Space Marine chapters, Space Marine chapter logos, Talisman, Tau, the Tau caste designations, Tomb Kings, Trio of Warriors, Twin Tailed Comet Logo, Tyranid, Tyrannid, Tzeentch, Ultramarines, Warhammer, Warhammer Historical, Warhammer Online, Warhammer 40k Device, Warhammer World logo, Warmaster, White Dwarf, the White Dwarf logo, and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations illustrations and images from the Blood Bowl game, the Warhammer world, the Talisaman world, and the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2013, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. All Rights Reserved

Also, Space Marine did not originate from starship troopers. That is a common misconception.
The first use of the term Space Marines was in fact in 1932, in Bob Olsen's "Captain Brink of the Space Marines"

The lawyers tried and failed look up the DOT THE SPACE MARINE debacle from last year.

Also GW outright took power armour and term space marine from the starship troopers book its right there in the acknowledgements blurb at the front of their books.

**CthuluIsSpy**

The Mobile Infantry were not called space marines in starship troopers. GW did take inspiration from their tactics and equipment though.
In fact, though the concept of powered armor in fiction started with the Lensmen series, it was Starship troopers that truly developed it.

**hobojebus**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Mobile Infantry were not called space marines in starship troopers. GW did take inspiration from their tactics and equipment though.
In fact, though the concept of powered armor in fiction started with the Lensmen series, it was Starship troopers that truly developed it.

The term was mentioned in the book but its not a big element of the story just a throw away line.

**Stephanius**

Imperial Guard or Star Military (=Astra Militarum), either way it's the usual low threshold for original writing and ideas.

**CthuluIsSpy**

hobojebus wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The Mobile Infantry were not called space marines in starship troopers. GW did take inspiration from their tactics and equipment though.
In fact, though the concept of powered armor in fiction started with the Lensmen series, it was Starship troopers that truly developed it.

The term was mentioned in the book but its not a big element of the story just a throw away line.

Where? I do not recall reading that term in the book.

**ClockworkZion**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Massaen wrote:
There is a difference between trademarks and copyright

That is true. If I understand correctly though, you cannot use a name that's been Trade Marked

Trademark rights may be used to prevent others from using a confusingly similar mark, but not to prevent others from making the same goods or from selling the same goods or services under a clearly different mark. Trademarks which are used in interstate or foreign commerce may be registered with the Patent and Trademark Office. The registration procedure for trademarks and general information concerning trademarks is described in a separate pamphlet entitled "Basic Facts about Trademarks".

http://www.lawmart.com/forms/difference.htm

Fair Use still lets you reference a company's trade marked terms, but there are rules for it.

**Kroothawk**

and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations illustrations and images from the Blood Bowl game, the Warhammer world, the Talisaman world, and the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2013,

Actually, by this they claim ®, TM and/or © for Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarfs, Orcs, Vampire Counts and Ogres. Of couse they can't find the documents proving this ATM, but then again they don't think they have to.

Just wait when Orks get a new Codex and it will be called Codex Ddrövevqävgmcgämuväqcxfxqw

BTW I don't think that in 10 years, many players will call their IG army Astra Militarum. That's something only GW lawyers find likely.

**Swastakowey**

10 years is a long time of new players and updated models + armies being named astra militarum. I am very certain before 10 years is up people will no longer call them imperial guard. Except some older people if they have resisted long enough.

**ClockworkZion**

Kroothawk wrote:
and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations illustrations and images from the Blood Bowl game, the Warhammer world, the Talisaman world, and the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2013,

Actually, by this they claim ®, TM and/or © for Empire, High Elves, Dark Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarfs, Orcs, Vampire Counts and Ogres. Of couse they can't find the documents proving this ATM, but then again they don't think they have to.

Just wait when Orks get a new Codex and it will be called Codex Ddrövevqävgmcgämuväqcxfxqw

BTW I don't think that in 10 years, many players will call their IG army Astra Militarum. That's something only GW lawyers find likely.

Trademarks don't have to be registered to be used, but registering them makes them easier to enforce.

**Steelmage99**

Swastakowey wrote:
In 10 years time when everyone calls it Astra Militarum, people wont look at 3rd party models called imperial guard and click that they are astra militarum stand ins. Doesnt change much now but it will in the future.

And those 3rd party models will be sold as "compatible with Games Workshops Astra Militarum ™ range " which is a perfectly legal thing to do.

GW will have gained nothing but the ridicule of its customers.

**Swastakowey**

Steelmage99 wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
In 10 years time when everyone calls it Astra Militarum, people wont look at 3rd party models called imperial guard and click that they are astra militarum stand ins. Doesnt change much now but it will in the future.

And those 3rd party models will be sold as "compatible with Games Workshops Astra Militarum ™ range " which is a perfectly legal thing to do.

GW will have gained nothing but the ridicule of its customers.

Yea I guess so. The ridicule will be temporary though.

There will be a reason for it and we just havent found it yet.

**ClockworkZion**

Steelmage99 wrote:
And those 3rd party models will be sold as "compatible with Games Workshops Astra Militarum ™ range " which is a perfectly legal thing to do.

If it's used in that context, yes. If its being used to sell knock offs of the models as those, then no. The latter doesn't happen too often but just enough that it's possible they've decided to make it a little easier to spot.

Steelmage99 wrote:
GW will have gained nothing but the ridicule of its customers.

According to the internet, that's called "Tuesday".

**krazynadechukr**

The terms generate confusion, general hand ringing and no small amount of nerd rage. From the U.S. Copyright Office: copyrightprotects original works of authorship when fixed in a tangible medium – in print, online, sheet music, even software code.Trademark guards words, phrases and symbols when they signify a business or a product for sale. No creator needs to apply for a copyright. It exists from the moment a work fixes in an accessible medium, according to the U.S. Copyright Office. Those rules don’t apply for business trademarks – need to apply for those. How does all that flimflam matter in this current casing involving Games Workshop? Like this: The book in question, Spots the Space Marine, is a work protected by copyright law. Games Workshop claimed to hold a trademark on “Space Marine” as its intellectual property.It’s illegal to use a trademark, real or imagined, to bludgeon an artist’s copyright. The book in this case didn’t signify a business, or seek to profit from Games Workshop’s products through some casual association.For there to be infringement, you have to do the deed – infringe. If Maggie Hogarth had created cover art using GW iconography and used her work to fool readers into thinking the book had some Black Library affiliation, then the company’s case seems more legitimate. She didn’t, and as a result, GW’s claim has more holes in it than my car’s last muffler.

**Gashrog**

hobojebus wrote:
Gw can't claim space marines they were mentioned first in the book starship troopers which is where power armour also came from, they could however claim astartes as they did make that themselves.

It comes down to who registered it first as well as public perception, not who invented it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/2352743.stm